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» Sound Choice - SoundBoard » Customer Service » Is it legal? Karaoke/Computers/Night Clubs (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Is it legal? Karaoke/Computers/Night Clubs
thegirlsinger
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I want an easier way to host karaoke at night and the new method that Sound Choice is working on sounds like my cup of tea!

Is this new way of putting karaoke songs,CD+G or any format on a computer legal yet.

Someone please enlighten me because I just copied the following info from a link on this page.

Thank you for your help!

Here's the info:

The use of an unlicensed copied product is illegal. The copyright laws are very clear about the fundamental legalities of copying copyrighted materials which includes many other products than music. Basically, the law permits you to make an unlicensed copy of a copyrighted disc for your OWN PERSONAL USE only. If you want to listen to the copied disc in your home or your car, that is legal. You may not make an unlicensed copy of a disc for ANY COMMERCIAL USE. That means that you cannot make an unlicensed copy as a gift, as a promotional item, for sale, for use in promoting another product, for use in a show or publication, and a myriad of other commercial applications. If you are using the songs on a disc for any reason other than your own personal listening, YOU MUST USE THE ORIGINAL DISC.
IN ORDER TO USE A COPY OF A COPYRIGHTED PRODUCT, YOU MUST HAVE THE WRITTEN PERMISSION OF THE COPYRIGHT OWNER. Many manufacturers have Licensing Agreements for the use of their products in various applications. If you want to use a song or disc in a commercial application, you will need to contact the manufacturer and apply for the licensing rights for your application.
If I buy a hard drive system that has pre-loaded songs, can I legally play these songs?
If the hard drive system has LICENSED content, it is certainly legal to play any of these licensed products. Before you buy any such machine, you should ask to see the licensing rights for the music loaded on the machine. There should be a licensing agreement between each music manufacturer and the company producing the player for all the music loaded on the player. Also, you should demand a copy of the licensing agreement before you order or accept delivery of your machine. Make sure that you have copies of agreements that cover every song on your machine. If you are using a player with illegally copied songs, you are still liable for their presence on your machine. Your machine and its entire library can be confiscated as evidence if there are any illegal songs - effectively putting you out of business.
If I own my own discs, can I load them onto a hard drive to play them in a show, etc.?
No, you MAY NOT load songs from other manufacturers on your hard drive. The licensing rights for music on a hard drive machine exist only between the machine manufacturer and the music provider. These rights do not extend to the owner of the machine, to load songs from other manufacturers on the hard drive player. Copying the discs on to a hard drive is still copying the discs. Legally, it is absolutely no different than burning a copy of the discs. In order to copy your discs on to your hard drive, you have to have the written permission of the company that produced the discs and owns the copyrights.
What companies license their music for play on a hard drive?
Licensing agreements for content are individual agreements with the any hard drive player manufacturers. As of July 1, 2005, there are no known agreements with any active karaoke music manufacturing company. If you consider purchasing any system with music produced by any other manufacturers, it is highly likely that the music has been illegally copied onto that hard drive. Make sure that you ask for, and get a copy of the licensing agreement between the machine and music manufacturers prior to purchasing the player.

[Confused]
HOW DO KJ'S GET AWAY WITH USING KARAOKE ON COMPUTERS TO HOST A SHOW WHERE THEY ARE GETTING PAID TO PLAY?

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http://www.singalongparty.com

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Timberlea
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They're doing it illegally in 99% of the cases.
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thegirlsinger
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That's what I was thinking.
I am sick of people telling me it's O.K., when IT IS NOT!

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DJ Plat
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Thegirl and Timberlea are correct. I would suggest to reread the first two sentances of your post. Overall, there are very few songs ( in the grand scheme of things) that can be legally purchased for use on a computer. They are out there, but very few and I don't believe enough to run a show off of.
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knightshow
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well, there are two companies out there that put out their material in the Windows format, or the cavs format. Again, their legality may be questioned, but with them continuing to pump out the material month after month, nobody's bothered to shut them down yet. Lots of threats, yes...

They ain't SC, but there is definately enough to run a show.

In addition to that, there's also a couple of companies that don't care what you do with their materials... as long as you buy them. Mostly these are the foreign makers of karaoke.

Then there's the question of if they digital shows you're talking about are converted legal material, and now we're talking the absolute horror of a no-permission thing rather than outright theft of karaoke manus.

Please don't lump ALL computerized shows into the same clump of grass... although with the definition of the law as currently stated, I guess you can do no better than the karaoke manufacturers do themselves.

[ June 13, 2007, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: knightshow ]

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Matt

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Lonman
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quote:
Originally posted by knightshow:
In addition to that, there's also a couple of companies that don't care what you do with their materials... as long as you buy them. Mostly these are the foreign makers of karaoke.

Well I wouldn't say 'don't care'. I'm sure they mean as long as it's 1:1 & no more.

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thegirlsinger
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O.K. you guys,
As I read the following from my first post, it leads me to believe that someone is manufacturing a legal hardrive with karaoke cdg's:

If I buy a hard drive system that has pre-loaded songs, can I legally play these songs?
If the hard drive system has LICENSED content, it is certainly legal to play any of these licensed products. Before you buy any such machine, you should ask to see the licensing rights for the music loaded on the machine. There should be a licensing agreement between each music manufacturer and the company producing the player for all the music loaded on the player.


So who are these companies and how can I buy one?

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doggy
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This board is run/hosted by Sound Choice
Sound Choice does not sell or license their material for hardrive based players.
These points have been made many times all over the board

Do you go to Target and ask how to find a thing in wal-mart?

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What part of 'WOOF' don't you understand?

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singin4u
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I am writing on behalf of myself as an entrepreneur in the DJ industry. I have been a self employed single mother for the past 13 years and have managed to be a good mother and able to provide for my family due to this. I have purchased my music cd’s and cassettes through various stores and online companies since 1992. I started hosting DJ and KJ shows in 1994, I started with the singing machine that used cassettes and paper lyrics. When the CDG’s became popular I upgraded to them for the past 12 years. I am now a 40 year old woman and I have raised 3 wonderful kids alone due to the fact that I was a great Karaoke / DJ host and always had the best in music supplies as far as karaoke was concerned. I only bought the best to bring the best.
All those years I never really understood the copy write laws on using the CD’s I bought to obtain my own music, and if I have offended your company I do sincerely apologize. I have been recently educating myself on the laws and the concerns of it all and it is very confusing and hard to understand in a whole. I understand there is a lot of controversy as far as the copy writes laws are concerned for the karaoke aspect of the DJ industry and modifying personal cd’s into digital or computerized product. However, in all honesty I have found that converting my cd’s into mp3 format and zip files prolong the use on the songs and protect them from theft, damage and misplacement, as I have suffered a loss on all three incidents listed. Therefore I can understand the need and want for this upgrade or change in the business. My main concern is the talk about crushing the karaoke shows and trying to put a cabash on personal businesses. If that did happen, so many would lose their jobs, which all reality doesn’t pay a lot to host for 4 hours. But in many cases, such as mine, it’s all we know and has supported many American families and businesses for years.
Our country is already suffering huge loss in employment so people are seeking other ways to generate an income to support their families. I would love to see some kind of new law that would support mobile DJ’s and give us the chance to oblige in some way that we don’t offend copy write laws.
I have contacted ASCAP and BMI for licenses and neither company has contacted me back. I am willing to pay a yearly fee to be able to carry a Mobile DJ License as I am sure many DJ’s are to keep their home businesses alive. I do understand that piracy is a huge concern in the computerized age, but that is something that will virtually not be stopped. As technology grows, people will always find a way to tamper with it. But great minds can come together and figure out a way to keep the karaoke companies
My suggestion is that all the karaoke companies also offer their CDG’s in online downloadable format to be purchased from their sites as well. If you can’t beat em’ join em’, right? There is still money to be made here, and I for one would be a dedicated customer to this option.
Music dubbing, copying, and reproducing has been going on as long as there has been music available. This is a fact! Companies make devices that allow this, such as your dvd copiers and dual cd recorders. “Recorders”, being the key word. We can’t stop every single dishonest person, but we can still count on the honest ones.
I don’t agree with copying cdg and then reselling them for profit. That I do agree is a true piracy act. But to copy them and give them to someone for their own personal use I don’t agree is piracy. If a friend asks me if I have a few songs in my collection and would I be willing to copy them to a disk so they can enjoy them too, because they simply can not afford to buy them. I would make a copy for them. I would not want anything for it, it is a gift. Now is this piracy or being good hearted? Do I feel guilty for it or do I feel like a good about it?
Internet Piracy or “sharing” is a tough one to deliberate, as many of us were taught as children to “share nice” with other kids, our personal toys or property and now its illegal to “share nice”. I would imagine that the main argument here is how easy it is to get music off the internet without having to pay for it. Well for it to be on the internet first of all, it had to of been purchased sometime, somewhere and that person decided to share it. So who is really at fault here, the people taking advantage of the “free” copies of karaoke, movies or music they would like to have but can’t afford, or the person who made it available? The average person is going to come running when they know its’ “FREE”. Free attracts. We are a “Free” country. Many marketers know this, because the good ones always offer something free to get people to see and purchase their other products with the “free promotion”.
So where does this leave the karaoke manufacturers? Do they spend a big dollars and big time trying to illuminate piracy, as we all know is a “no no” or do they invert the problem, work it out to their benefit and pull the piracy seekers to the legal land of downloads?
That’s what I would like to see, as it would not only help them, but support the DJ business as well. It would illuminate the possibilities of DJ’s giving up and seeking other work due to the piracy conspiracy. That would mean another huge loss in sales for the CD and CDG companies as well.
Does anyone share in my thoughts here? What is your opinion on this? What should happen with all this?


Signed,
A Very concerned DJ
[Confused] [Confused] [Confused]
code:
  


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Timberlea
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Just to let you know, in Canada a DJ can buy a licence from AVLA (renewed yearly)to put their music on hard drive, however CDGs cannot be done due to the sync licencing. This would seem like an ideal solution to the problem. Maybe BC can contact AVLA if he were interested and see what could be done.
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DanJ
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I also beleive the AVLA thing is for specified publishers, not everything a DJ has.

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Dan

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thegirlsinger
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Well I guess you all have answered my question.
The old school way of loading the original CD+G's night after night is THE ONLY WAY.

As a Songwriter and Publisher, I hope those who are stealing other peoples products/songs get busted just as they would if they stole from Target or Wal-Mart!

Peace, Love and Happiness!!!

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http://www.singalongparty.com

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Tunes
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I'm with you on this. I am so sick of the honer among thieves type of mentality by illegal KJ operators on these boards. So I hope the ones who need to read this really can read it all.

This society is based on laws and enforcement of laws with penalties as punishments and deterrents. Without laws it would be total chaos. The problem in this case of copying copyrighted materials used commercially is the lack of identification and enforcement. So,it seems that obeying the law relies on integrity, morals, and honesty of people, which leaves the legitimate KJ companies in this area competing against the 90% illegal ones with $30,000 worth of stolen music. It really does make it hard to compete, a very low pay in the club environment, and a saturation of competition in the business. It compares to being a computer hacker or some other type of internet criminal. Although there are always victims of these crimes there is not really any agency interested in catching the small fry $500 thief. They don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars tracking leads all over the world to find the END computer and person responsible for a $500 crime. On the other hand I think stopping the common karaoke crook in commercial business would be simple as pie. They stand out like a sore computer.
The fact that format shifting is illegal for commercial is widely known thanks to boards like this one and many other sources. Continued use tells me that those who do it don't really care if it is illegal . That would also tell me that if they would break that law nothing should stop them from padding their songbooks with a few extra songs they didn't? Both being illegal and nothing to stop them or no one to police them why would they stop at an honesty or moral or integrety issue since if they had those qualities they would not have been an illegal format shifting operator to begin with. Some say they want to protect their investment and shift to computer so that they can keep their originals safe and sound at their house. Running most all businesses requires buying equipment which usually has a life expectancy. Most all equipment and tools wear out. It is a part of doing business. Why should the karaoke companies care if they format shift? Well, when it does wear out they'd like to sell you a replacement and rightfully so. When one buys a car does he steal another off the lot so he can keep his purchased one in his garage so as to not wear it out? Some thieves would if unlikely weren't going to get caught or the penalty was not going to end up behind bars. Starting a business requires being able to afford to start that business. You may try to have an unfair advantage illegally such as opening a car dealership selling stolen cars or building a shack and flipping burgers with the name McDonalds painted on the front. Saving a quarter million dollars in franchise fees is definitely cheaper. But see how long you last in those types of illegal practices. No one was born with the promise that they can get into a business cheaply just because they don't have the money it requires. Backup disks you say? If you need them you need to buy them. If you worry about them being stolen you need to buy insurance for what you can't afford to lose. The fact that it is cheap for a young punk to get into the KJ business with very little money, a lap top, stolen music, and a half junk system. It makes it pretty irresistible for some people who wants a mostly fun job with easier work conditions than working by the sweat of his brow. What other business can one start as cheaply as a stolen music karaoke host business? Not even a lawn service unless you do it with a stolen mower and equipment. So, every one and their brother are now becoming instant KJs and the numbers are growing like weeds. For some normally law abiding persons why is it that their conscience deceives them into believing that because they can't touch a physical piece of matter that it isn't stealing? Well, they surely realize that money has been spent on band costs, licensing cost, production costs, administration costs, material costs, advertising costs, every cost associated with a business. And that business expects a return on that investment by means of sales. If they really need a copy of a disk it is one they would have bought and that is taking money out of the businesses pocket. If they didn't need it then why did they steal it? Example: why pay for satellite tv instead of stealing it since they are losing nothing and they broadcast the signal anyway? If you didn't steal it you would pay for a subscription and by not paying you are taking money out of their pocket. You weren't born with the right to have satellite tv or to start a karaoke business if what little money you can scape up is not enough. If you haven't got the money, maybe you are wanting to be in the wrong business. Work hard and save and possibly one day you'll have enough and acheive your american dream. But QUIT srealing money out of MY pocket!
Will this ever change? Hard to say. I think deterrent is the key here. In all my karaoke years watching the news and news papers not once have I seen a headline that reads: "Illegal karaoke KJ prosecuted for copyright infringements - $250,000 fine and six months in jail". A couple of those making the national news and it would be like rats leaving a sinking ship. Even a civil victory case or two would do wonders. You can't stop crime. The "I'll never be taken alive" criminal mentality will always be present in this society. But it's about time to start taking them legally down judge alley and hearing the sound of that wooden mallet slam in the name of justice.

[ June 25, 2007, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Tunes ]

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thegirlsinger
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Tunes,
That was a great speach!
If only more people would take action to enforce honesty, some of us would not face the ugly moments of telling a vistor that we refuse to play their bootleg CD+G at the nightly show.

I can only maintain so many books, CD+G's, PA equipment and lights. I surely do not mind people bringing in songs that I do not have, as long as it is a legit company manufactured CD+G.

By refusing to play a bootleg last Saturday night, again I was told that everyone else is doing it and no one has a problem with it but me and I am just being a BI__H.
Yeah, it makes me feel bad but I will stick to my guns until proven o.k. to do otherwise!

Peace, Love and Happiness

--------------------
http://www.singalongparty.com

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Tunes
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Thank you. I am honered to be able to stand with you on what is right. Often when one stands up for what's right he is left standing alone.

All KJs who have invested as much money as it takes to get started in this business and run their show with legally bought disks should be standing with us and shunning those who are illegal.

Here's how the ethical KJ sees the business the way it should be:
One invests thousands in music cdg's and equipment bought from karaoke manufacturers. The bars and venues pay top dollar for great quality karaoke made available through the show and with great sounding equipment which in turn attracts tons of singers. It makes the venue plenty of money. The singers are happy to sing on a system on which they sound good and they in turn buy some quality cdg's for personal use again from the manufaturer to learn and practise new songs at home. The venue owner is happy, the singers are happy, the karaoke manufacturers are happy, the KJ is happy, everyone is so happy. The demand for legal KJ's is high. It is a large investment for the KJ but all the thousands of illegal KJ's have disappeared either because they went bankrupt after the $250,000 fine or they are still in jail or ran like rats out of fear. The increased pay for quality shows plus the supply and demand has made the karaoke business worth investing the many thousands it took to get started legally. Finally an ethical profitable business for everyone willing to invest legally.
Now here is reality at this point:
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry start stealing karaoke music and running off laptop to conceal their theft from the nieve. They have virtually nothing invested in music, usually an amature bad sounding cheap system and lots of low quality tracks mixed in with their 35,000 stolen stash. They burn copies of any song a singer wants to take home with them for five dollars and the singer in turn burns a few for their friends and on and on. In this case the singers may be happy enough, the illegal KJ is singing all the way to the bank, the bar venue don't care one way or another because he only paid a hundred bucks for the night and and Joes bar down the street has the same so he's competitve. But the manufacturer lost thousands and thoussnds just off of this single illegal KJ and his illegal practices. Of course the legal KJ is not happy when he looks at his $60,000 investment and finds he can't find a gig for that week because all the laptop stolen music thieves have taken all the venue jobs that week for a hundred dollars a night. Of course one young punk with 35,000 stolen songs now has three systems working with copies of those songs making gigs even scarcer.
It's not an easy situation for a legal KJ to face right now. I suppose for the love of karaoke even after all the investment and loss of money he may stay in it for a while longer, but someone wanting to get started in a legitimate karaoke business hoping to actually make a reasonable profit would be a fool to enter the business now or at least until someone steps up to the plate and drags some of these illegals to court and the rest scatter like dogs dipped in turpentine. Anyway, rant over, all of the illegals can stop bitting your nails and tonges now. lol

[ June 27, 2007, 04:10 AM: Message edited by: Tunes ]

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karaokegod73
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That last post is exactly how I feel about this situation. I do occasionally get threatened with being replaced because I do have CDGs that skip or go missing due to other KJs of mine mis-placing them. I also know people who have lost tens of thousands due to theft. Legally we aren't even allowed to protect our investments, or get the shows others can afford to by illegally replicating their libraries, which they possibly never paid for half of in the beginning. And nothing seems to be happening to them.
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MISTER WONDERFUL
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I run a laptop, and I don't steal music, I have purchased 1147 cdg's and have them crated in road ready cases. I use a laptop for ease of operating.
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DanJ
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Are you playing the CDG's in the computer, or do you have the CDG's ripped onto the computer's hard drive?

If it's former, why bother. If it's the latter, that is an illegal copy.

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Dan

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Tunes
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Whether you have one disk or 20 million it's irrelevant if you are not using them. You know that there are no computer based KJ's who won't say they have the originals at home. Or at least I haven't found one. If they aren't using them they are breaking the law and infringing on the rights of those who legally produced them. Imagine if you got pulled over by the police because you didn't have your license plates attached to your car. "Oh but officer I have them at home. You can come to my house and look if you want to." Do you think he's going to say; "Oh, well if you have them at home that's ok, have a nice day". No, he would probably rather you have them on your car like the law states or preferably you just ask the judge if his honer would like to come to your house and see them instead of him.
It's just a fact that those who do steal music run burned copies or run them off of a computer so why would anyone even want to be associated with those in that boat just for a tiny bit of convenience? I think we all know why.
I think when the manues' finally start taking some action and the law is enforced we will see the ones who do or don't have legally bought disks. And I'd venture to say that most of the computer based shows will not have the disks to continue operating or their books will be TEENY WEENY. The first step to get a court order to confiscate is made easy by the fact that playing only one manue's song on the computer will make that easy. Then an order by the court for the served to produce an original disk for every song listed. They won't care if all 1200000000 are legally bought, it's that one illegal one that's gonna be the pulling of the carpet out from under them. You see, it don't matter if you have one stolen car or two million. It don't matter if you steal a big car or small car, it's still a stolen car and with karaoke songs, it's no different and will be no different in court.

It might be more convenient to just take money out of the cash register at a store instead of caring your own cash and keeping your's tucked safely away at home. But one day the convenience is going to catch up with you. [Big Grin] teehee

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Lonman
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quote:
Originally posted by Tunes:
You know that there are no computer based KJ's who won't say they have the originals at home.

I would NEVER say I had all the originals at home. They are all sitting on the counter at the show each night just like always.

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Tunes
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[Wink] Good for you

Look officer! I have my stolen car right beside my purchased one [Big Grin]

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Lonman
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LOL!

[ July 04, 2007, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Lonman ]

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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I thought you have a computer ready to go Lon?
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Lonman
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quote:
Originally posted by MISTER WONDERFUL:
I thought you have a computer ready to go Lon?

Computers been working since April this year. But all my discs are still in the same spot they always have been on the counter in my booth at the club along with all my players.

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Lonman Productions

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knightshow
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I would ALSO never say it's a "tiny" bit of convienience... the ability to have my rare and discontinued discs preserved digitally to where if something happened to the original, I'd be out those songs...

hardly "convienient". What it is to me was always about preserving the sanctity of the material I've spent thousands of dollars on.

The conviencience factor to me is rapid access to said tracks, the ability to make custom screens for my customers, to play mix music (audio and visual) easily, less weight to bring with you on a mobile setup, and less of an issue with theft or damage to the original discs. As they are safe and secure at home.

The license plate analogy is entertaining, but is wrong, as there ARE no karaoke cops that will pull you over upon seeing a computer setup. First, one is stationary, so no need to pull you over... secondly, the right to drive is not bestowed to you upon proof of citizenship. Karaoke hosting requires only two things, the equipment and media to perform it, and a venue to do it in.

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Tunes
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You are right. No analogy is gonna fit any thing else perfectly. A bank robber is not exactly like a rapist and murderer. But they are all disgusting criminals. I was tying more to show how stupid one could be in trying to justify a wrong doing when one wants to using that simple license plate analogy.
A computer does have a place in karaoke like for a song data base, visual aids like you say, and all kids of other uses from song books to rotation programs. But not in playing stolen music.
The computer industry, from day one, has had a criminal element among the users. Even after stating in license agreement, that the user agrees to before installing software, users still try time and time again to install multiple copies of software on computer after computer even though as stated it was licensed for just ONE computer. Something some people just don't get is the fact that they bought ONE copy! Just because it's easy to steal another doesn't mean they have the right. Like you say, no one is going to come knocking on your door to find out if you are a criminal or not. So the software companies spend millions on software copy protection to help keep the dishonest honest. It don't always work but it helps. Now take that one license copy of software and take it into a commercial environment within a big company and start making copies for all the computers off of it and it becomes a different matter. And YES, companies have been sued for big bucks for doing just that.
So, at home, all you have to live with for being a thief is yourself and spouse and kids eyes. No kid raised by a thief is going to judge a crooked parent too hard, lack of integrity or not.So all is well on the home front for those. But in commercial, I beg to differ. Although no one has come knocking at your venue's door yet doesn't mean it won't happen soon or in the future. For the illegal karaoke thief it could be just a matter of time. It amazes me how blatant some are with their stolen goods. Even blatantly coming to a manufacturers site openly waving the stolen software practices in front of their noses. Now that's like a new car thief driving his car back to the dealership he stoled it from thumbing their noses at the owner. Wow, it takes all kids in this world I guess.
I'm not the karaoke police. I'm not out to change the world single handedly. I'm not trying to insist people see things my way. I'm just glad I have the integrity within my self to know that if I accomplish nothing else in this world that I do my best to stand up for what's right and encourage others to do so even against the odds. It's not easy standing up for right. Sometimes I almost wish I was a disgusting thief so life would be easier. But at most times I'm so glad I'm not and my friends and family are not.

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TTowntenor
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Disgusting theif, that comment in itself is disgusting. Just because I choose to run my discs that I legally purchased off of a computer, doesn't make me a "disgusting thief". I pay for everything I get. There is not one song on my computer that I don't have a disc to back it up, I too have all my discs with me at every show, howeve they are in a dj cd coffin underneath the table. According to MTU, the maker of the program & funders of legal studies, running off of computer 1:1 only perfectly fine...ESPECIALLY if you can prove on the spot anything you have in the computer is purchased. Now get into every other manufacturer of karaoke software ie MTU, Powerkaraoke, Sax & Dotty's, Compuhost, PCDJ, OTSDJ, and whatever else happens to be out there, when all of these companies SELL to the consumer that their product can be used in commercial environments...basically telling the buyer "No need to carry all those discs", that right there should put the responsibility back to the manufacturer of the software. Every manufacturer of these types of programs are geared to selling to the "pro" kj, not the average home consumer. Karaoke hardware manufacturers are creating hard drive players with the same type of sales pitch. VocoPro, one of the leaders of karaoke hardware (for whatever reason) makes a hard drive unit with the ad 20K songs in your shirt pocket. CAVS has their digital jukebox, and now a networkable base to be able to connect up to 10 machines off of 1 set of discs...now THIS to me would be a truly illegal act, yet they are selling it. Acesonic has a digital format jukebox. There are numerous others as well. So with all of these variables in place, you saying i'm a disgusting theif simply because I choose to use one of these programs is very uncalled for. I have receipts to back up every disc that is transferred. I do not download off the internet, I do not multirig systems, I do not sell/give songs to customers, I do not sell preloaded hard drives on ebay. I simply use another form to play the music I bought.
Scenerio: If I wanted to use the computer as my player, you would be ok with that correct? I would still have EVERY benfit of my visuals to enhance my show over the standard basic player/cdg combo. Only difference I would be using the original disc instead of the hard drive, the program I use allows discs to be used. So you wouldn't have any problem with that. I could keep my in between graphics, I could keep the rotation ability, I could keep my special graphic announcements, I could keep the sound effects at a click of the mouse, the only thing that would differ is the music (that is still there anyway) wouldn't be played from the hard drive which is what you have the issue with. You have no problems with a computer user in any other respect?

[ July 05, 2007, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: TTowntenor ]

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Timberlea
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Actually putting the onus on these software makers is like putting the onus on Colt, Smith & Wesson, Ford, GM, etc for being responsible for using their products illegally. Also in most, if not every state, and in Canada, radar and lidar detectors are illegal, yet they are being manufactured and sold. Just because something is available does not mean it's legitimate for all uses.

[ July 05, 2007, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Timberlea ]

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Tunes
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I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from on all of your points but I'm always happy to respond.
On the statement saying that an honest person thinking that a thief is disgusting is disgusting--- well um
I mean uh well aha LOL I'm just not sure what to tell you on that. Maybe I'll just say that it's possibly way too late in your life to feel any differently and leave it at that.
Next issue of saying you buy disks but copy them to hard drive. Is it that you feel like it is your right even though the manues are saying that their copyvrights prhibit thst? It's pretty clear from what I've here on soundchoice that they aren't giving you the right to do that. If I'm wrong maybe they would be so kind as to correct me here in writing for us all to see.I would be one of the most appreciatve, happy, and thankful people here for such a generous and expensive gift.
Now as far as electronic and software people offering the supplies for sale to allow you to run an illegal show does not mean that you can do it or that they are saying it is alright for one touse it illegally no matter what ways they describe the capabilities of it. A gun manufacturer can sell guns and descibe the lethal potentual all thry want but it doen't give one the legal right to go commit a crime with it. They have been taken to court by murderers though trying to put the blame on them. Maybe that's an avenue you may pursue if you are blaming the makers of such equipment and programs. But I can tell ya you can buy a lot of things legally--It's how you use them that holds you accountable.
Now it almost seemed to me that you were aware that one is stealing when one copies the copy righted material but were saying as if it was justifiable in some way. Well if a man goes into a store and steals baby food and diapers because his baby was hungry and needed diapers and he had no money it still wouldn't be justifiable....it would only be sad. So for making it a teeny bit more convenient for one to run a show I just can't go along with your thinking if that's the case.
All this talk of convenience--- yeah what more convenient could it be to have 30,000 copied songs to run on a system to makeit a teeny bit easier for the hoist. If it was done legally by buying those thousands of duplicate copies maybe that conveniencees wouldn't seem so important if thousands of dollars had to be spent on songs you already have bought. It don't get any more convenient than free. Maybe one day there will be a copy protected secre karaoke format that will allow such convenience and we'll see how many are willing to pay out the nose for such a conveience. My guess is that most everyone will decide putting a disk into a player is childs play.
Which brings me to another point. The very best ran shows I have been to in my life have been disk based shows. They were ran by professionals who knew what they were doing and pulling a disk and loading it didn't make the show skip a beat. My suggestion for those who don't seem to think that they can run a show as good legally is to keep prsctisingbwith disks and maybe you can get the hang of it.If you can't maybe you just weren't cut out for this type of work, bless your hearts. If you think disks are troubesome Just be glad you never had the mobile vinyl record experience. Any how, gladto have the opportunity to chat with you like this. Isn't high tech times great?

[ July 05, 2007, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Tunes ]

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TTowntenor
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quote:
Originally posted by Tunes:
Next issue of saying you buy disks but copy them to hard drive. Is it that you feel like it is your right even though the manues are saying that their copyvrights prhibit thst? It's pretty clear from what I've here on soundchoice that they aren't giving you the right to do that. If I'm wrong maybe they would be so kind as to correct me here in writing for us all to see.I would be one of the most appreciatve, happy, and thankful people here for such a generous and expensive gift.

So even though I support the manufacturers including Sound Choice by purchasing their material that I use, i'm still a thief? I own every single disc how am I a thief, absolutely no different than when I ran discs exclusively, still had the same amount of songs, nothing I did not own. A format change for the purpose of playing back a disc I legally purchased may be "technically" illegal, but I am stealing nothing, absolutely nothing!

quote:
Now as far as electronic and software people offering the supplies for sale to allow you to run an illegal show does not mean that you can do it or that they are saying it is alright for one touse it illegally no matter what ways they describe the capabilities of it. A gun manufacturer can sell guns and descibe the lethal potentual all thry want but it doen't give one the legal right to go commit a crime with it. They have been taken to court by murderers though trying to put the blame on them. Maybe that's an avenue you may pursue if you are blaming the makers of such equipment and programs. But I can tell ya you can buy a lot of things legally--It's how you use them that holds you accountable.
I have YET to see a gun manufacturer ad that is geared toward illegal use...buy this gun & be rid of all your troubles. Maybe you are finding them, I don't know, but EVERY manufacturer ad for the software & hardware for karaoke use is geared toward pro users & are marketed & advertised as such!

quote:
Now it almost seemed to me that you were aware that one is stealing when one copies the copy righted material but were saying as if it was justifiable in some way. Well if a man goes into a store and steals baby food and diapers because his baby was hungry and needed diapers and he had no money it still wouldn't be justifiable....it would only be sad. So for making it a teeny bit more convenient for one to run a show I just can't go along with your thinking if that's the case.
But again, I am not stealing nothing, this is where you are confused. If I were downloading off the IRC channels or buying pre-loaded hard drives without originals, yes then this is down & out stealing. If I didn't have the money to buy the original, I don't get it in any means, I wait until I can purchase it!

quote:
All this talk of convenience--- yeah what more convenient could it be to have 30,000 copied songs to run on a system to makeit a teeny bit easier for the hoist. If it was done legally by buying those thousands of duplicate copies maybe that conveniencees wouldn't seem so important if thousands of dollars had to be spent on songs you already have bought. It don't get any more convenient than free. Maybe one day there will be a copy protected secre karaoke format that will allow such convenience and we'll see how many are willing to pay out the nose for such a conveience. My guess is that most everyone will decide putting a disk into a player is childs play.
See again I think you assumption of computer users are getting way off target. Yes i'm sure that does come from legitimate pirates that have never spent a dime on anything & multirig their library that they didn't pay for originally.
I have over 13,000 songs in my library, each and every song has a corresponding disc (approx 900 individual cdgs) that was purchased (avg $20 per disc=approx. $18,000 I have SPENT). I run 1 system. If I were to run a second system, I would get a completely different set of discs just like I would if I were running the discs/players themselves. Yes, I agree copying 1 hard drive to run multiple shows is completely illegal & this is NOT what I do.

quote:
Which brings me to another point. The very best ran shows I have been to in my life have been disk based shows. They were ran by professionals who knew what they were doing and pulling a disk and loading it didn't make the show skip a beat. My suggestion for those who don't seem to think that they can run a show as good legally is to keep prsctisingbwith disks and maybe you can get the hang of it.If you can't maybe you just weren't cut out for this type of work, bless your hearts. If you think disks are troubesome Just be glad you never had the mobile vinyl record experience. Any how, gladto have the opportunity to chat with you like this. Isn't high tech times great?
I ran discs since '93 up until about a year ago. Am quite fluent at it, always had (still have) 2 players hooked up, 1 cued, 1 playing. I more than likely have discs that you can't even get your hands on anymore since i've been BUYING discs SINCE '91.
The computer use is more for visual enhancements, not convenience...I think I already stated that. There are things on the computer that I am able to do that can't be done with straight players.
SO you never really answered my question. You seem to have a problem with computer users in general, if I were to continue to use my computer as a player but with the original discs, you would have absolutely no problem then correct? I would still get all the benefit of a computer run show, minus the hard drive, but then would be perfectly legal in your eyes correct? Which is exactly what will happen if companies & bars start going down for 1:1 format shifts. But that hasn't occurred as of yet. Multi-rigging 1 set of discs for multiple systems & drives that don't have an original disc to back them up, yes I believe should & will go down.

[ July 05, 2007, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: TTowntenor ]

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If there was any justice in this world, oil company executive bathrooms would smell like the ones in their gas stations.

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Tunes
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I was thinking that most everything was pretty well covered in my previous posts but a couple of things may not betoo clear---sorry.
Yes, if sound choice said in writing here today "Dear friends and customers; it is our pleasre to announce that it is our honer and privalage to produce karaoke disks for your business and pleasure and if you don't think you have enough copies just feel free to copy away. Your happyness with free songs is the most important part of being in business for us." Yes, I'd have no problem with people running computer based shows.I may or may not myself, who knows.But until then it is stealing. You say you aren't stealing? You bought one copy and now you have two. No matter how you look at it you didn't pay but for one. They ARE losing money because if you feel you need two copies and you couldn't steal the extra you would buy them. Go back and read my software example. You buy software for one computer. Do you think they are not losing money if you copied it to another computer? They want to sell you another copy for that second computer.Just because you aren't using both computers at the same time makes no difference...it's stealing if it's not something they give you the right to do. An infringement of copy right period. No matter how one tries to justify it even if they would wish it otherwise it is stealing plain and simple. Other peoples property even if it's just words in a book, or anything else not in physical touchable matter is stealing if without permission. How much they lose or not lose has nothing to do with it. If you were given a free car I wouln't have the right to steal it just because it did't cost you anthing to begin with. Cost or no cost to the victom of theft neither justifies or makes anything any difference.To those who think just stealing words or sound is not theft just go try and publish someone else's book or song and you'll be enlightened. I may not have covered everything you asked are wanted to know but I'm sure we can discuss more if you like.

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knightshow
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the only person using convienience is you Tunes.

And you keep talking about stealing, and now with your last post, you talk about 1 disc copied onto a hard drive is now two.

Nobody's disputing that.

WHat the computer users say is they are using ONE version at a time. The originals are NOT in use, the copied version on the hard drive is... no manufacturer is harmed in this.

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Matt

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Tunes
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Should I just keep posting the software example of copying/stealing and how it costs them sales no matter if you use both computers at a time or not? And how the cost to the victom has nothing to do with it being wrong and illegal? Naaa, I think I will skip it and move on.
Well, I guess I have used the word convenience a lot. But so have others here and all over the boards. Maybe me and you will just scratch that word out of our vocabulary for a while as long as someone don't use it again here for an excuse to steal. [Wink]
I'm getting a little bored talking about computers--I got a great idea though, let's talk about laws and human nature and how it relates to this issue.
You know some of the qualities in people that I've always highly respected are honesty, fairness, integrity, morality, compassion, caring, respect,and ethics just to name a few. Some people have non of these qualities and some have all or most in varying degrees. I suppose if all of us had the highest degrees of all the great qualities then perhaps we wouldn't even need laws. But laws are primarily a neccesity to protect those with these qualities from those without them. In this case of stealing, for me, it's a no brainer--I choose to do the right thing no matter what the cost. Some others choose the other wrong thing. Sometimes even our laws aren't enough to help people to do the right thing. In this case it's more because of lack of enforcement and penalties.Put capitol punishment as the penalty and we'd see a large portion of people coming clean. LOL. But still, being legal doesn't always make it right I have to say. Not too many years ago in the middle east it was legal to beat or kill your wife. So being legal doesn't always make for right. Fortunately we live in a country that, for the most part, tries to be as "right" as possible and we create laws to reflect that. I don't agree with every law. But instead of chosing which ones I obey I try to change the ones that aren't right as should everyone. I can't see how those who paid lots of bucks for music would be wanting to support the illegal effort by being illegal themselves. It just goes to show you that even with laws some just want them to apply to the other guy and make their own set of laws for themselves to follow. I especially get a chuckle at ones' following down the wrong path of illegality trying to pull others down that path with them. I suppose that there is something about the sinking ship going down with others that makes them some how feel better knowing they are not going down alone. What a strange world we live in!
Another thing that has always amazed me is how someone who is in the wrong finds comfort and support from others who defend them and run to their rescue--kind of an honer amoung thieves thing I guess. I never saw that as anything very noble at all . The prisons are full of people who will stick up for someone else even if they are wrong. The friends I respect the most will stand up to defend another when they are right even if they don't like them. But they don't defend a friend just because he's a friend when he's wrong. They gladly try to point out the errors of his ways to get him back on track. I think if more people truly tried to help those who lost sight of truth and what's right it would be a much better world. Well, I'm trying to do my part LOL.
Now back to karaoke. I am saddened by the fact, as you are, that some songs are no longer available. But in this world money talks. If, for example, sound choice had the millions of dollars they have lost due to people infringing on their copyrights instead of buying all copies/backups from them they could probably change some copy right holder's minds to change their tune (no pun intended). In just about every way the whole business would be much better off if we could get rid of the illigal copiers..whether they just make one disk or a million. I figure a person is for the business or against. If he's for it, it will show in just what kind of show he runs.(hint:if he's using original disks he's for it) [Wink]
I know that although the honest are few and the crooks are many but even a crook should be glad for the honest. If everyone turned crook they'd all be stealing from each other. How's a crook to ever get ahead that way? No one has to thank us---it's a pretty thankless job but an honer.

[ July 06, 2007, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Tunes ]

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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Don't you just love Tunes novels? I run a computer, and have all my DJ/KJ music on it. The reason I don't carry my disc's with me is, the bar I play at is 1 and a half blocks from my house. By the time you were to get into your car, wait for traffic to exit the parking lot, and cross the street to get to my house, I would already be there in walking time. Wanna see my collection? here let me put in a 5 min. song, and lets take a walk, we'll be back before it's over. Now calling everyone a crook? That's ridiculous, just because I buy something, and change it, dosen't make me a thief. If i bought a T-shirt and cut the sleeves off, and turned it into a tank-top doesn't make me thief, I bought the shirt. 90 percent of the software purchased by user's allows you to use it on two to three different computers using the same passcode before the code doesn't work anymore. I use 1:1 with my disc's DJ/KJ. I'm not scared of "The Karaoke Police", I am not that hard to find, if it were that much of an issue, I'm sure they would have paid me a visit by now, I have been doing this since the late eighties, and have been using a computer for some while now. I can load disc's along with the rest of them, but I can load fifteen singer's,( and their names, and the songs they are singing, on the audience monitors) faster than loading disc's. Wanna call me a crook? go ahead, That's your own opinion, I have a few choice names for you too!!!!
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Tunes
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MW, I don't think that there is much more truth that I can lay on ya to respond to your post that hasn't already been reveiled. But I will say that I'm so sorry you'd have to go to so much trouble to get your gear down to the club to be legal. And I wouldn't want you to feel left out for such a short post to you so I'll try to have a little fun right along with you.
I can tell you seem to be perturbed with me. But I don't think it is over the legality issue. I think you are just trying to be nice. I think the real issue is that you are sick and tired of my poor grammer and bad spelling. It's so funny that just the other day I was thinking that same thing. I was thinking how it might be too late for some people to start learning right from wrong and it might be too late for me to learn proper grammer and spelling. Well, I figure by trying to learn and improve it couldn't hurt.You think my spelling and grammer is bad now you should have seen it before the improvement. heehee I learn something new everyday though. I guess what I've learned most from you is that more people than just me have room for improvement in their lives. Thank you so much.

[ July 06, 2007, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Tunes ]

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Mark Katzoff
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"But to live outside the law, you must be honest" - Bob Dylan
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flameslayer
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I'm not going to call anyone anything here. But, for the sake of the discussion, the point was made earlier this year in another thread that making a 1:1 format shift for "AT HOME" use was okay. But, using the "format shift" in a COMMERCIAL" setting was not.

This is how I remember the conversation going. Again, I'm not calling anyone anything here, and my memory may not be as sharp as it should but this is what I recall.

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ultimatefan
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Every company in my town is pc based anymore. Many of them doing for $50 a night. One guy does it for $25 and all the beer he can drink. I've almost completely stopped looking for a weekly gig. I've talked to several owners who are doing it strictly because how cheap these guys are. I've explained the legallity of it to a few owners, but they are not really phased. Sad. Of course it don't hurt that they have SC entire library (icluding 8125) on that pc.

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UB Star Karaoke Show

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knightshow
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quote:
Originally posted by Tunes:
Should I just keep posting the software example of copying/stealing and how it costs them sales no matter if you use both computers at a time or not?...

Boy you spun this completely!

HOW is my purchasing discs and putting them on a show computer costing sales? LOL Yeah, post away... I want to see the explaination on THAT one.

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Matt

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Tunes
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WOW, all those posts of mine explaining it time and time again and you still ask this same question? I've tried to make it easy giving more analogies so you could grasp it. It's getting old telling you over and over again but I guess since there's always hope I will say it one more time.

When you make that EXTRA copy...you got it free. If you needed that EXTRA copy the legal way would be to buy it and you DIDN't. They lose money because you didn't buy that EXTRA copy from them. Get it now?

It's not important that you couldn't buy it in the format you want it in. The companies might not and probably don't offer it in a format that you want to use. Tough luck. They sell in their choice of format, it's their right. If you don't want to use that format...don't buy it. Start your own business and get your own permissions and pay your own fees if you want it offered in that format. You are trying to go into business converting THEIR material. It's not your's to convert. They paid for the right. YOU didn't . All you've done is stolen their material to produce your own copy in a format they do not want their music in. My advice to you again, buy your own rights from the copy right holders, make your own karaoke in what ever format you have the right to, and quit stealing theirs.
I'm not the very smartest person in the world, and I can tell some here are for sure not. But I think I answered that question in a simple enough form that most people above the age of 5 would understand. I hope I have helped you out again.

[ July 06, 2007, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Tunes ]

Posts: 19 | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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