posted
Many people will not like this but here goes... I am a KJ who has always used the CD+G format, and I will soon be going to a Hard-Drive based unit. I will continue to purchase CD+G's to load into my new system because it is simply easer to prove my legality by the actual ownership of an ORIGINAL disc in my archival collection. I will also be loading some of my "old" CD+G data from my present collection.
I resent having to prove my innocence of "copyright infringement" by a "certification" or "audit" process that costs me time and money, when there is only the groundless presumption of wrong doing by some over-zealous Karaoke producing companies. The threats of litigation by certain companies if we do not submit to this pressure, is counterproductive and will do more harm to this industry than help. Karaoke as an industry depends on PART TIME hosts who run their shows at night, and at very close profit margins. Adding to our financial burden only helps the PIRATE to become even MORE cost competitive!
How many karaoke enthusiast non-hosts who practice singing in the privacy of their own home, will continue to buy discs if there are fewer places to go out and sing? Make no mistake...if Sound Choice and Chartbuster are able to demand compliance, how long will it be till ALL of the other manufacturers follow suit? Will we be required to certify with each and every individual karaoke producer? Will we be pressured to Re-certify yearly to be sure that we are still in compliance?
I'm sorry, but there are just too many holes in this system and this is not going to fix anything. Karaoke needs a central governing body to both insure its continued health, and also to protect and not intimidate it's honest hosts.
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
It's not the legit hosts that are to blame for this and neither is it the Manufacturers that we have to prove ourselves, It IS the PIRATE'S fault. With close to 90% of all hosts being in the pirate category, it is no wonder they have to ask for proof. How else do you get the pirates without the audits? Either you have the discs or not. If not then get legit or quit.
Posts: 21 | From: Waterbury, Ct | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
By the way, I am one of the Certified Hosts. I got mine in November of last year. They are suing the pirates and unfortunately you gotta break an egg to get an omelet. I have friends who, while they were legit 1:1, got caught up in the lawsuits and they were able to get their suits dropped because of the audits.
Posts: 21 | From: Waterbury, Ct | Registered: Sep 2006
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So you want to take one item and copy it. The audit will prove you are legit, otherwise every person and their dog will say "Yes, I have the originals when they don't". You are making a statement, now you have to prove it. What would your cost be if you had to actually purchase a second copy of the discs you own? I think SC et al are giving a pretty good price for you to be able to copy their discs. Now you can avoid the costsby remaining disc based. The choice is yours.
Posts: 391 | From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
So... I guess it's guilty until proven innocent now?
Benjamin Franklin once said "Those who give up their liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety".
I own not only Sound Choice, but many other manufacturers discs; just how many hoops shall this dog jump through? What is needed is definitive court ruling on the disc owners rights. I bought the discs, and now I must pay again to prove that I bought them?
Sure, you are certified now...but what about next year? How can they be sure that you are still legal? I guess you won't have a problem when they demand yearly compliance audits? Come on... you KNOW it's coming don't you? Remember, it won't be just ONE audit per year, but one for each manufacturer!
If they have proof of wrong-doing, then absolutely prosecute to the fullest extent of the law! BUT... without evidence of a crime, they're just bullying!
If you should check case law concerning this issue you'll find the case that they are trying to make for audits to be a weak one.
posted
Oh... the moment you add ONE more song to your audited catalog, you are no longer compliant. Have you thought of that one?
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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Every time another set of songs are added to my certified catalog, I'll need to be re-certified so that when the groundless accusations are made, I'll be ready! LOL
Oh, and thank you for the intelligent discourse Lonman, I'm so used to jerks on "boards" I was pleasantly surprised, it's SO refreshing!
In reality though, what I think should be done, is to put in place a set of consequences so dire for both the Pirates and the Establishments that employ them, that they would be insane to chance getting caught dirty.
And yes... since the Karaoke producers are the ones bringing suit, they should be the ones required to do their homework, with all due diligence before they accuse an innocent host. I also believe that 1 to 1 "Media Shifting" will be once and for all be recognized under the fair use rubric, very shortly if they do bring suit against an innocent host who will not take it laying down. The resulting counter suit for harassment (possibly a "class action suit") would finally put this question to it's definitive rest.
I think it would be easier on everyone, to concede to "fair use", stop digital downloads entirely, and accept CD+G transfers as the ONLY legal means for media shifting. This way if accusations are made, a proper investigation can be perused by the proper authorities before wrongful actions are taken. What do you think?
posted
I forgot to thank Danny G & Timberlea as well. It's good to find boards with intelligent people willing to openly and civally discuss disagreements!
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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To be covered under fair use exceptions you need to read the law and understand what those exceptions are.
"In reality though, what I think should be done, is to put in place a set of consequences so dire for both the Pirates and the Establishments that employ them, that they would be insane to chance getting caught dirty."
Isn't that exactly what is happening with the lawsuits?
If you have shifted the media from CDG to computer without permission you have already broken the law. How much investigation is really needed to prove it?
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Actually, you have only broken the law according to Chartbuster and Sound Choice... I don't believe they've litigated any cases against the Media Shifters yet, only pirates. I think even they know that since an archival copy is deemed "Fair Use" already by US courts, they'd lose a case brought against a KJ who own's every CD+G that was transferred "1 to1" to a hard drive... (your CD+G becomes the archival copy)...once again, anyone interested in the law and real justice should check out this link, you'll be shocked, amazed and enlightened...I know I was!
As long as they can charge a fee for an audit of their own brand of discs, don't think for a moment that they'll stop until the authorities make them stop, It's a money maker for goodness sakes!
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
But again, that is just one interpretation of the law as they see it - not necessarily any more correct than others that state it is completely illegal to do so.
posted
When a program is downloaded from a CD ROM to a PC, a "copy" is made and it's used each time that function is called upon. If I'm not mistaken, unlike an analog record player which plays directly from the vinyl source, when a music CD is played on a CD player, the digital information is stored in a buffer, if only for a microsecond, that means a copy was made!
I know that my examples are silly and extreme, but you see the point.
Copyright Laws were put in place to prevent the distribution-for-profit of musical (and intellectual) properties, owned by an individual or company. Karaoke Jocks are not distributing the music from their song catalogs, they are simply performing exactly the same function as they were before they went digital. Unless the KJ is selling copies, or even giving them away, he or she should be well within the protection of "fair use". NO, a KJ can not offer to record a singers performance during a show, THAT would be in direct violation of copyright law by actually distributing, even if they GAVE it to them free of charge.
As a side note, I'd like to find out if a separate "royalty" can be paid so that a KJ could offer the recording service legally, does anyone out there know about this?
Anyway, that is my understanding of the law as it is used and litigated today.
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
The law is not based on what is used or litigated which I take it to mean as to how the lawyers in those cases interpret those laws. It is based on the judgment and interpretation of the courts. The higher the court the better and more reliable the judgment and is binding on all lower courts in the country so long as the matter decided was the direct relevant issue in the case. Hypothetical scenarios decided in cases not directly relevant to those cases are of persuasive value on other courts only and not binding upon those courts to be followed and obeyed as legal precedent.
Posts: 288 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Used by the unscrupulous, and litigated by attorneys. Oops, that sounds like the same thing doesn't it?
You're right, Judgment in the form of a court's findings is the best possible conclusion. We as karaoke professionals need these findings to both inform us and to protect our industry. With real guidelines as to what is legal in the absolute sense, we are armed and armored against the REAL pirates and a frightened industry embarking on witch-hunts. I realize that the idea of certification and audit are knee-jerk reactions to the massive loss of profits by piracy. I hope that the manufacturing industry will come to realize that the harassment of "1 to 1" compliant KJ's is not the way to go. They need to understand that evidence of noncompliance with "1 to 1" should be the only reason to audit. We must demand the standard of "innocent until proven guilty". Investigation, with the possibility of spot checking, is tolerable if not acceptable, but compelling 1 to 1 compliant KJ's to submit to audits, at their own expense and without evidence of wrong-doing is as wrong as the sending of the Japanese-Americans to concentration camps during World War II, because a few MIGHT have been spys and saboteurs...We must maintain the presumption of innocence.
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
In the USA, the Police cannot search your home without a warrant. In order for the authorities to obtain a search warrant, there must be compelling evidence of possible wrong-doing. In a hypothetical city in the USA, seething with crime the authorities would still not be allowed carte-blanche for blanket searches without warrant. This is a basic human right.
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
1 to 1 is already the accepted standard according to Sound Choice and Chartbuster, they are just charging us for the privilege of proving it!
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
Mace, don't confuse Criminal Law with Civil Law. In a Civil Case, a Discovery can be ordered on the predonderance of evidence, whereas in Criminal Case, it is based on reasonable and probable grounds. A perfect example was the OJ case. Criminally he was found Not Guilty, in the Civil Case he was found responsible and the injured parties were awarded a judgment.
Posts: 391 | From: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Each exception in Fair use is well defined.
The most important part is the fact that commercial use of a product is prohibited, under fair use. As a KJ if you are taking compensation for a show you are engaged in commercial use.
Even more to the point is "trademark" law which prohibits any copy and display of said trademark without the expressed permission of the trademark holder. And this is the law that the suits are being filed on.
More to the point of Timberlea's post above.... Actually a simple perpoderance of the evidence is all it takes for a judgement to be rendered in favor of the plaintiff. Discovery and an audit through discovery can be compelled simply upon the reasonable belief that your hard drive contains files that were copied from the plaintiff's product. Reasonable belief is very easy to attain, if you are running a karaoke show from a computer and displayed even one of the logos belonging to the plaintiff, then you have already given the proof that any court would need to compel discovery of that item, and any purchase history you may have involving that product.
Sound Choice has always stated that yes you can make a 1:1 copy of the CDG but you must archive the copies and use the originals and without an original the copy must be destroyed. They have also maintained that if you seek permission from them that they will allow a 1:1 media shift for computerr use but the originals must be archived.
So it still boilsw down to getting permission and to get that now you have to pay for their time to audit your system.
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Exactly what injury are they suffering from 1 to 1? We advertise their product on our displays. We paid for the original. People still must buy their product to become or maintain 1 to 1...AND the questions that everyone are still dancing around; How many times must we be audited? Yearly? Every time we add a song? When we replace a machine? Who regulates, and where does it reasonably end? I have people saying that they are proud to have been audited last November...if they've added songs since then, they are no longer compliant!!!
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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So just because I added For the kids I would be considered non compliant with CB? I don't think so. I added 5 SC discs right after my audit. Does that mean I am no longer compliant? I don't think so because the purchase was direct from SC themselves. They know I have these discs and intend to add them to my collection. Now it might be good to add a registration page of purchases to SC's site as CB has done so that any new purchases are covered by that. But I believe that the Covenant not to sue covers that scenerio. All I have to do if they come calling is produce my originals. No big deal. As to having the pay for the audit, that is just the cost of doing business.
Posts: 32 | From: Waterbury, CT | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
The issue isn't what injury they have suffered from someone who actually has a 1:1 relationship with their files the injury occurs from those who don't.
It is a shame that these companies have to go after all computer operators who refuse to legitimize their computer libraries to get those who aren't 1:1 but that is the nature of the beast, it isn't the fault of the manus this issue was forced by those who would seek to profit illegally from the manus products. In other words put the blame where it belongs on the pirates who try to justify stealing and then claiming that there is no harm in what they have done.
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
The reason that they are not going forward with suits against those who are actually 1:1, is because they are not looking to prsecute anyone who is actually a paying customer (that is what the audit is for). The people they are seeking compensation from are those that stole the product to begin with and don't have the disc for the songs on their system. If you have the disc and didn't get them after you were investigated or were filed against you have no problem, you just go through the audit get certified and go on about your business.
However for those who were running pirated systems who have already been investigated and or filed against who made a rush to start purchasing after the fact have simply multiplied their problems because there are those out here who do nothing but search the purchase history of those who are named in a suit, it really isn't that hard to do.
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Thank you for clearing part of that mess up...BUT, I still want to know how many times I must be audited (and pay for the privilege). AGAIN, is it going to be Yearly? Every time we add a song? When we replace a machine? Who regulates, and where does it reasonably end?
ALSO... are we paying for the audit only, or are we paying for the privilege of using a digital "copy" while keeping the CD+G as our archived copy...Trust me, it makes a difference!
posted
If you are digital you have to archive your origionals and use the digital files.
Even if it is once a year the rate is greatly reduced after the first audit, unless of course you are adding another system then you would have to go through the full audit for that system as well.
You are paying for the audit and the privledge of being on the certified listings, which is some very good very inexpensive advertising since any venues that are caught or warned about the pirate situation are directed to that site for a KJ.
There is really no mess the mess comes from the mis-direction and mis-information that the pirates and their supporters are putting out trying to cloud the issue in hopes for support.
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
No one cares if you change machines it is what is one the hard drive that counts.
No one cares if you are adding songs legitimately, I add update songs to my system every month I have been doing so for 26 years and it appears I will be doing so for a few more.
You have been letting too much stench from the pirate retoric go up your nose. There is a reason they are raising so much stink over this issue, what you have to do is legitimize your system and let the pirates fall where they fall. If you spent money for disc to be in this business then you certainly don't have any reason to be concerned about where the pirates fall.
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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Then what is their problem with publishing their rates both for now and for the foreseeable future? I want to know, and I think that I have a right to know what to expect. I want to know about future demands, Re-audits, adding songs and such. I want it clearly stated and publicly published...Why is this asking too much? They have a website, unless there is a reason NOT to publicly disclose their future rates and plans, why not? I don't think that given a choice, any KJ would say that they didn't want to know what those future plans are; any KJ that says that they don't care is lying.
When the "cable" company offers a great introductory rate, but won't say what the rate will become once the introductory period is over...well, you can be sure there is a REASON! Bend over, here it comes!!!
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
The difference is that the fee for the next audit will be cheaper. I know that the audit for CB is yearly so I would assume that so is SC. Which reminds me that before November I'd better have the money available and a webcam.
Posts: 32 | From: Waterbury, CT | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
Yes, thank you, but HOW MUCH CHEAPER? I run a business, and having a business plan requires some fore-knowledge of my costs, so that I can work-up pricing. It's just being fair to the people that support their industry, to be up-front with us. Am I wrong? I can't help thinking that we are deliberately being kept in the dark.
They need to understand, Increasing OUR costs means we must increase our prices, and the Pirates win again. This policy HURTS our industry...period.
posted
CB's 1st audit is $199.00, so if I add 10% new material to my karaoke song catalog, and they've already audited my old stuff, they only need to audit 10% of my catalog right...what's that, 20 bucks? LOL!
I know it's stupid, but you gotta have some fun with it right?
posted
I didn't know there was a problem with the published rates!
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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DJ-Mace I can understand that you do not want to pay for audits. If you need a different way to come at the situation it is simple...you are paying for the right to transfer your media (and not have to carry your discs keeping them safe at home)...if you do not want to pay for the right you may keep using your CDG's. SC and CB have been forced to this action by the pirates. $199 CB $150 SC 1st years audit costs...CB has stated that renewals will be either $25.00 or $50.00 (not sure if they have decided yet)SC has not posted an amount yet but has stated they will do so soon. This is no different than having to pay for State/county/city licences depending on your area or carrying insurance to protect your interests in case of an accident/theft/fire/flood ect. These costs are also tax deductible if you are incorporated or possibly DBA depending on your state laws. Every disc has the all rights reserved statement and the manus have decided they will allow for the transfer and give you a covenant not to sue if you prove you are 1-1. The added benefits of being listed as "Certified" and the indemnity for your venues comes in more than handy and is a added bonus. I hope this info helps you to look at thing from a different angle and good luck on your audits if you do decide to go to using the computer
-------------------- How do you eat an elephant ? One bite at a time How do you end karaoke piracy ? one pirate at a time Posts: 6 | From: Tampa Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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posted
Wait a minute youjust hit it right on the head Athena.........
I go to DMV and purchase a license plate for my van it cost me $52 for the year, next year I go in and the take my $52 but don't give me a new license plate they give give me two little month and year stickers to put on my plate.
Am I being ripped off?
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I have already paid for my vehicle why can't I use it when and where I see fit without having to pay for the privledge every year?
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Because Driving is a privilege and not a right, and also and you don't own any part of the roads, they belong to the tax paying public as a whole. Nobody said you can't drive your car all over your own yard!
If you are going to charge a fee for inspection in NJ, you must post your prices. If you regester your car in NJ they (NJ) post their prices ON-LINE. Each county or state that you drive in, or through, doesn't make you buy a licence to be on their roads, even though you didn't pay for them.
I am simply against each individual Karaoke producer being able to set their own fee rates and rules without some kind of regulation. I feel like, since they lost money on the pirates, they're trying to make it up on us.
...and where is the KIAA? I thought they would be the voice of a unified karaoke industry. I woulden't mind if the KIAA came up with a SINGLE audit plan and a FAIR payment for the service covering all of the bigger karaoke companies...
Oh, I don't need luck...I have all of the original discs, but thanks anyway!
Posts: 103 | From: Boonton, NJ | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
And there is no problem with you running computer karaoke in your basement 24 - 7, it doesn't become an issue until you start charging for it and running it in a public venue.
Each State charges everyone to run on their roads as well as the federal goverment charging you to run on those same roads. Roughly 58 to 70 cents for every gallon of gas sold is taxes. 18.4 cents goes to the federal government and anywhere from 40 to 55 cents goes to the state (depending on what state you are in).
The reason each individual manu can set there own rate is that each of them can only give permission (and charge for) media shifting (copying and displaying) their trademark. If you want to do it then you pay to do so. (which you still have to pay for the road use even if you are driving around in your on yard)
-------------------- Cheerleader for the efforts of Sound Choice Chartbuster and Stellar. Posts: 158 | From: Virginia | Registered: Nov 2010
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