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» Sound Choice - SoundBoard » Ask Sound Choice » CAVS - Legal or not (Page 2)

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Author Topic: CAVS - Legal or not
TheKaraokeGuy
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Like I said, Lee, there will always be "bad guys." I know one KJ in my area uses burnt CD+G's in a show. I also know this person to have three systems on the road and only one original copy of the media. I only have one system, and will always have only one. I can't afford to duplicate my library and will not run multiple shows with only one copy of the media. I COULD run a show with my CAVS and one with CD+G's. I could, but that would be wrong. I HATE being lumped with the "scurvy dogs." I purchased my machine directly from CAVS with song packages preloaded. Then I subscribed to the THM monthly updates to keep current. I get no complaints about quality. Sound quality can be depleted by loading the tracks at a lower bit rate to save space. Just order it with a bigger HD and the quality issue is solved. When you load your CD+G's into the system it encodes the graphic file so you can't ghost the HD to run in multiple machines. Most people can't reverse engineer the NCG(graphic) files to work in another CAVS or PC.

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Lonman
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I don't care for CAVS simply because the swipes always seem a bit off. I know of 5 shows that i've seen run cavs & everyone seemed the same way & I have heard complaints from customers attesting to the same effect. Played with the 'new' one in store a few weeks ago & didn't see any improvement. We even did a side by side test with a disc & the cavs swipes were noticeably slower.

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lehidude
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quote:
Originally posted by TheKaraokeGuy:
The fact is SC hates CAVS because they have the market cornered right now and SC has to catch up or will only have their "die-hards" as customers.

I sure hope not. A "legit" CAVS owner wouldn't have Sound Choice loaded on their machine. A sad day, indeed, when the "market" doesn't include Sound Choice.
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glmmantis
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oh yeah.. i did one song at said kj's show and the timing was WAY off,like almost a full measure.

Another quality issue.

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TheKaraokeGuy
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Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

3. amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

BC had said in another thread that the implementation of the replacement policy isn't worth keeping track of, much less considering it to be a major source of income for SC. It is my understanding that if there is no measurable effect on the market value of the work, it is considered "fair use." That is, unless BC is mistaken about how much income SC makes on replacement of discs. SC discs haven't devalued because someone transferrs their legally purchased CD+G's onto a hard drive system.

I want to ask all of you KJ's out there. Do you play original CD+G's from patrons, if they have a song you don't? In a public performance, if you don't hold ownership of the media, you can't play it, legally. I know all of you have done it.

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Lonman
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quote:
Originally posted by TheKaraokeGuy:
I want to ask all of you KJ's out there. Do you play original CD+G's from patrons, if they have a song you don't? In a public performance, if you don't hold ownership of the media, you can't play it, legally. I know all of you have done it.

That's not true, if the venue is licensed (ASCAP, BMI, etc), there is absolutely nothing illegal about playing a customer disc. That is completely ludacris!

[ May 23, 2006, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Lonman ]

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[kingtony™]
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I've never seen swipe problems with any CAVS unit that weren't on the original track

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Be still my heart
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TheKaraokeGuy
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Wait a minute, isn't that considered "borrowing." My attorney told me not to play customer discs to avoid ANY complications. If you consistantly play a customer's disc week after week, that has a negative effect on the market. Because you wouldn't HAVE to purchase that disc. What is "fair use?" Soundchoice would love to sell you that disc that your customer brings in, but why would you, when you could "borrow" it. I think that's wrong. I own my songs, but most of you on this forum would say that what I'm doing is illegal. That, my friends, is ludacris.

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Lonman
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No it is not borrowing - and even if it was, the customer is using their own disc in the manner that it was specifically designed for. If it being played in a licensed venue, then it is perfectly legal, there is no one losing any money, the disc WAS bought by the customer that intends to use it. Sound Choice would LOVE to sell that disc, yeah i'm sure they would, but fact is the disc was already sold, Sound Choice made their money, it isn't mine, it's the customers. If it a burned disc, that is another story.
Even if you were to 'borrow' the disc - so what? As long as you aren't making an illegal copy from it, there is nothing illegal about it, it's when you start copying the disc or adding it to your hard drive is when it becomes illegal. I have people GIVE me discs to add to my collection quite often, nothing illegal there either, they bought the disc.
Also if I am 'consistantly' playing a customers discs week after week, I would take a look at that and probably end up BUYING the disc myself unless it was something that only appealed to that customer only in which it wouldn't matter because they already bought the disc.
As far as format shifting (or basically making a 'backup' copy for commercial use), technically it is illegal at this point in time. Whether one will get busted provided they can provide all the original discs, that's another debate.

[ May 23, 2006, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Lonman ]

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Lonman Productions

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Sam Cathcart
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An original disk is an original disk, regardless of whether you purchased it or someone else did.

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Lonman
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quote:
Originally posted by King Tony - King Of Hearts:
I've never seen swipe problems with any CAVS unit that weren't on the original track

Not any of the ones i've seen, unless they were all illegals to begin with.

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Lonman Productions

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Sam Cathcart
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quote:
I don't care for CAVS simply because the swipes always seem a bit off. I know of 5 shows that i've seen run cavs & everyone seemed the same way & I have heard complaints from customers attesting to the same effect. Played with the 'new' one in store a few weeks ago & didn't see any improvement. We even did a side by side test with a disc & the cavs swipes were noticeably slower.
I've downloaded several of their songs to get me by until SC releases them and have found that CB are OK timing wise but the THM's are consistantly of by about a 1/2 second. I've had to use a sound editor to adjust the mp3 to get them to satisfactorily line up.
The mp3 bitrate is only 128 so the sound quality doesn't live up to it's potential.

I don't use CAVS but the consensus I've seen on different forums is that they've lots of problems.

[ May 23, 2006, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Sam Cathcart ]

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www.singwithsam.com

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flameslayer
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Hey Karaoke Guy, you sure get sensitive when SC fires back at you. In your first posting on the subject you were the one all full of pi$$ and vinegar then when you get a dose of it back you cry about it. And yes it reads like you're crying about it!
Let's review for a minute. You presume the following, that SC is secretly working on their own CAVS type unit and that's why they're mad about other people using one already out. First off, so what if SC is working on one? It's their business and they can do as they wish. You'll just have to come to terms with the fact that SC won't be calling you for input into their business decisions.
Secondly, you gripe about SC's "over-inflated" prices and again presume that SC is upset because people can buy a CAVS unit with "good quality" tracks at a fraction of the price. Well, it's been documented here repeatedly that SC quality out-shines the other manufactures, and this by the KJ's that use them. You didn't miss a chance to gripe about the pricing when it's a known fact here that "quality" costs money. The musicianship, attention to lyrical detail and swiping accuracy speak for themselves in the nominal difference in pricing.
Then you go on to take a swipe at the SC users by saying,"die hard SC users are upset because they are on the wrong side of technology". You must think you're really all that to now speak for the rest of us also?
Maybe before you rip into SC, and insinuate that the rest of us are dumb for paying the SC price and using disc's instead of CAVS you should just shut the hell up.

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BC/Studio Manager
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The main problem I have is your rudeness in promoting competitive products on the Sound Choice website – whether it’s soundtracks or hardware featuring our competition. Then you compound it by spouting critical opinions that have no factual basis or truth, nor the benefit of direct knowledge from any of the parties involved – other than your own personal experience using a CAVs unit.

Don’t come on this site and promote the competition’s products – it’s just plain common sense and manners. (Or, the lack, thereof.)

I would really appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth. (Or, at least get them correct.) Your original post this week seems designed to criticize Sound Choice, or provoke a fight. If you’re going to criticize, at least get the facts straight – then it’s not a problem, it’s a difference of opinion or, in the best case, it might be educational and valuable. Coming on here to p*** and moan and provoke a fight is not going to lead to anything positive.

Your answers to my responses indicate you’re not reading carefully enough. Neither SC nor I have called you any names or made anything personal. Nor have I spoken about anyone else personally, or called anyone else, a "thief" as you state (in this thread).

My original comments referenced the companies that you tout as having ‘legal’ tracks on the CAVs unit - “...Of the companies that you mention in the context of "LEGAL...". As I stated previously, there are factual, on-the-record legal issues in play with at least two of them, related to copyright infringement. If some or all of the songs by those manufacturers are illegal on discs, they are likely illegal on hard drive. There is also the possibility – based on our own experience with the publishing world today - that those libraries are (illegally) copied to an unlicensed media (CAVs) in the first place. (I don't know - I'm speculating here.)

My second post was in reference to the often-heard complaint from many in the KJ community about why Sound Choice doesn’t have every product we ever released in perfect condition for the entire lifetime of every KJ on the planet – which, of course, is not in anyone’s reality. No other business in the world would accept that as reasonable - they just sell what they currently have to offer, period. And so do we. Can you still buy a ’65 Mustang from Ford? Does Microsoft support the original version of Windows? Can you buy the original “Meet The Beatles” vinyl LP from EMI? Of course not. Get over it.

As far as CAVs, we choose not to work with them, based on our observations of problems with their product. We made the decision years ago not to do business with a process that has no security - you just said it yourself: “…Believe me when I say, no matter what protections SC puts on their PC based system, someone will crack it. …” That statement can certainly be applied to the CAVs unit, or any other unprotected computer-based system.

Weather or not it is intended to, the unprotected digital system enables people to circumvent copyright legalities, perpetrates counterfeiting, and parasitically eats away at the entire karaoke chain from the manufacturer to the KJ to the establishment to the singer. As long as there are SC tracks on any CAVs system, that tells all of us that their system has no security. (Especially when you have people selling the core hard drvie loaded with SC tracks.)

The only times I even think about CAVs is when we get complaints from KJs about other KJs illegally using our tracks on a CAVs unit, or when the topic comes up on this board. Based on the statements and posts from KJs on this board and JOLT, many, many of the KJs who use the CAVs system, break multiple copyright laws, lower the standards of karaoke music quality and KJ professionalism, and drive legitimate KJs out of business. (Other than those things, it sounds great.) That's not a good busines model to jump on board with.

Eventually, when the laws and technology and the market all get leveled out, it will be a totally digital world. It will be interesting to see if the industry survives. There are already many who have perished, and others who are looking to other markets to avoid the quicksand between piracy and licensing.


BTW: The core concept of "fair use", as written in Federal copyright law, as well as the DCMA, is that there is NO commercial use allowed - period. "Fair use" relates to personal use, or non-monetary gain for you and any establishment.

Any use of a Sound Choice, Pop Hits Monthly, Sony Records, etc. disc, or song file in any bar, club, VFW hall, county fair, etc. is a commercial use by definition, not a personal use.

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TheKaraokeGuy
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Look, I wasn't trying to pick a fight. I was offering an alternative to the "Everyone running a CAVS unit is illegal," argument. You all mentioned CAVS, specifically, long before I did. I don't believe that being critical of a company for their business practices is rude. You all were doing it to CAVS and the PC guys. I just think that SC is off base to suggest that everyone should run their show the way they want. I can't find where to delete my profile. If I'm not wanted here I'll go away. *sniff* So please BC delete me. If you guys want to bash CAVS or whoever, be my guest. You can even bash them on their own forum and no one will tell you to grow up or call you rude, because you can think whatever you want. God Bless the U.S.A.

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Music can bring people together, when otherwise they have nothing in common.

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TTowntenor
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quote:
Originally posted by TheKaraokeGuy:
I can't find where to delete my profile. If I'm not wanted here I'll go away. *sniff*

Later!

quote:
[qb]You can even bash them on their own forum and no one will tell you to grow up or call you rude, because you can think whatever you want. God Bless the U.S.A.

Yeah sure we can bash them on their own, but only until THEIR mods delete the post that they don't agree with so no harm right? You can think however you want too! But you're wrong lol!

[ May 23, 2006, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: TTowntenor ]

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If there was any justice in this world, oil company executive bathrooms would smell like the ones in their gas stations.

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flameslayer
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheKaraokeGuy:
[qb] Look, I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

That may be true but, like the guy who fires a gun straight up in the air to celebrate something that bullet has got to come down somewhere and then he's surprised when it hurts someone. You may not have intended to start anything,(or more likely, aren't happy with the way the thread treated you)but you did and now you have to live with the consequences.

[ May 23, 2006, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: flameslayer ]

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glmmantis
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I've heard NOTHING good about cavs support or cust svc.

Sorry.

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BC/Studio Manager
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We're still having a communications problem - either you just have a different perception of my use of English, or I'm not doing a very good job of communicating.

Your post: "...I don't believe that being critical of a company for their business practices is rude. You all were doing it to CAVS and the PC guys. I just think that SC is off base to suggest that everyone should run their show the way they want...."

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the first sentence... but that isn't what happened here, either. I didn't say that criticizing a company (Sound Choice) was rude. I said - exactly - "The main problem I have is your rudeness in promoting competitive products on the Sound Choice website".

That's a huuuugge difference, and you keep missing it. We have threads all over this website that are critical of Sound Choice, and have always accepted the posting of criticism. Just becuase we don't agree with every word, doesn't mean we don't allow it to be posted. Is there a limit? Of course. But typically, it's more about the attitude that accompanies the opinions, than the opinions themselves.

But, yes, we do not accept people promoting the products of our competitors. And neither does any other corporation. Do you go onto Coke's webstie and tell everyone how much better Pepsi is? How long do you think that would last?


Secondly, Sound Choice has never said to any KJ that a show has to be presented according to any rules or requirements dictated by this company. Unless you're saying that our objection to the people who steal our soundtracks or use them in a fashion defined by Federal law as illegal, is trying to dictate the way a KJ should act.

You're entitled to your opinions, and you're free to express them with your wallet. If you want to promote other karaoke manufacturers, feel free to do so on another site.

/////

Let me qualify that last remark, before it's misunderstood.

By stealing, I am mostly referring to the people who out and out copy and burn our tracks without a legal purchase, and those who post, trade, swap, whatever, on the IRC channels.

However, it is a fact that we have never allowed or agreed to our tracks to be loaded onto any CAVs machine ever. So, if someone is using a CAVs machine with SC content, that person is stealing SC property or using stolen property - no different than shoplifting a CD from a retail store.

[ May 24, 2006, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: BC/Studio Manager ]

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TheKaraokeGuy
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Ok BC this is my last post, I promise. I really don't want to misunderstand you. How can you call the act of buying a SC CD+G and puting it on a HD based machine stealing. I can buy any CD from a store and put it on a PC and run a DJ business from it. Shoplifting is taking something without paying for it. The difference is clear (to me, at least) you got MY money for the CD+G's. I didn't break into your storage facility and STEAL anything. I loaded the tracks myself from the CD+G's that I legally purchased. I used to run a show with a --- triple tray CD+G player. (I left the brand name out since SC sells CD+G players.) You are telling me that the media that I purchased from you becomes "stolen property" if I don't use a standard dinosaur CD+G player. That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. I OWN the CD+G's! According to you, am I running an illegal operation? If so, I will delete all of my SC songs and sell the original discs on a certain auction site we are all familiar with. I will buy other brands to replace the songs that I can. I don't want to because most of the SC tracks that I have are great quality.

BTW: If I offended you by promoting CAVS, I am truly sorry. If I offended you by promoting THM, I am also truly sorry. If I P---ed any of you KJ's for calling you whatever you said I called you, I am sorry for that, too. I don't think anyone is stupid for carrying around CD's, just more ambitious than I. Mine look good in a cabinet in my basement. Maybe I'd better check on them, I might need to dust.

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Music can bring people together, when otherwise they have nothing in common.

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DanJ
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quote:
Originally posted by TheKaraokeGuy:
Ok BC this is my last post, I promise. I really don't want to misunderstand you. How can you call the act of buying a SC CD+G and puting it on a HD based machine stealing. I can buy any CD from a store and put it on a PC and run a DJ business from it.

I think you may want to clarify that. I'm pretty sure the RIAA considers a DJ using a hard drive as using copied material, since putting your CD onto your hard drive is indeed copying. However I'm not sure that the RIAA is an entity with any legal authority on this, and I'm not sure how the new-ish legal download sites muddies this water.

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Dan

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glmmantis
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Kguy,

There may be "no harm" in converting ONE disc to ONE HD.

BUT, Technically (someone correct me if I'm wrong) SC does NOT own rights to their tunes. They only have permission to use them, and they pay for that permission.

To convert any tune to another format, legally, requires written permission from the copyright owner (not SC)for EVERY song.

So if SC makes say 3,000 copies of a disc they PAY royalties on 3,000 copies. They have PERMISSION for 3,000 songs!

I do NOT have permission to copy one! Even if it's for me.Because I use them commercially.

Perhaps biggest part here is COMMERCIAL USE. If you are at home, put a copy on your cassette, 8 track, dvd, cd, cdg player AND HD. Commercial use is different.

BTW, welcome to the SC board.
There is no venom meant in my posts, just info.

As for BC. He is a good guy and will shoot straight every time.It is their board.

His knowledge is deep. Take it as you will.

Peace,
Lee

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rjthe1god
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quote:
Originally posted by DanJ:
quote:
Originally posted by TheKaraokeGuy:
Ok BC this is my last post, I promise. I really don't want to misunderstand you. How can you call the act of buying a SC CD+G and puting it on a HD based machine stealing. I can buy any CD from a store and put it on a PC and run a DJ business from it.

I think you may want to clarify that. I'm pretty sure the RIAA considers a DJ using a hard drive as using copied material, since putting your CD onto your hard drive is indeed copying. However I'm not sure that the RIAA is an entity with any legal authority on this, and I'm not sure how the new-ish legal download sites muddies this water.
Actually that has been the hotbed for debate over the last year, as the RIAA is positioning itself to start going after Ipod DJ's. Also ASCAP and BMI were rumored to want to charge DJ's for their music collection too, I'm not too sure how much truth there is in that last one, but as a DJ if ASCAP/BMI starts charging everyone, it will be the end of the business as we know it.

[ May 24, 2006, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: rjthe1god ]

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Randy Jersky
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Rockin_Rebecca
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I sort of hoped that TheKaraokeGuy would be good enough to give us some solid answers about the CAVS machines, since he says he purchased the music from CAVS and not from a 3rd party that preloaded the harddrive.

I'd like to know if he has problems with the swipe on his machine. Someone here mentioned that if the songs were taken from the master disks that swipe was no longer an issue. One of the biggest issues I've heard about these machines in actual use is the swipe.

I guess he answered my other question earlier when he said he put all of his legally purchased disks on his CAVS without regard for who has given permission and who hasn't.

I know a lot of operators are going to either CAVS, PCs or laptops all over the nation. I have to ask about sound quality. If the bit rate is too low, it may sound okay at a low volume on your computer, but when you amplify it in a big room....

Also, everyone keeps touting that copying to a harddrive is a way to protect your investment. Believe me, I really get this concept. So many of my disks are out of print. New operators in my area want to know why we have songs they can't get legally. Right now, other than treating our disks with kid gloves, there seems to be no other legal solution.

What does a harddrive operator do when his drive crashes at a show? Does he have an external drive on hand to plug in and keep going? What's legal about that? If he does, then he has at least two copies of every song. It is inevitable, after all, that eventually a harddrive will crash. It's just a matter of time. And can crash without warning. We use dual CD players so, hopefully, if we have a problem, it will be with only one of the drives and not both. It's pretty simple to replace a CD player, not so easy to replace a library of songs.

Posts: 429 | From: Lincoln, NE USA | Registered: Apr 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheKaraokeGuy
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Since BC hasn't answered me yet, I'll address some of the questions RR had. Having a copy of your hard drive only becomes a legal issue when you use it to run more than one show at one time. As far as permission, I don't need permission from Ford to use, modify, or trash my van, I don't see how anyone can tell you what to do with your LEGALLY purchased property. My attorney told me as long as I don't run two systems with only one library, what I'm doing is perfectly legal. SC, or anyone else that makes karaoke tunes, cannot dictate the use of any product once the purchase is made. I have my original drive in my player, one backup on hand, and one at home. This keeps my show going no matter what. I even keep a spare motherboard at my house for when that goes out. It's not illegal to back up your library. Only illegal to run two or more shows with one library or sell it. RR, if you decided to go the CAVS or PC route, You could have all three of your libraries on three different systems and be perfectly legal. The players give you plenty of warning before a crash. I think the main problem with this thread is that you all assume that the discs you purchase are someone else's property, even though you paid for them, that's just plain silly.

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Music can bring people together, when otherwise they have nothing in common.

Posts: 11 | From: Nebraska | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TheKaraokeGuy
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I'm sorry about this SC, but all of you should speak to a lawyer. BC and SC are off base here. If you have a friend that's an attorney or can talk to one he/she will tell you that I'm right.

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Music can bring people together, when otherwise they have nothing in common.

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DanJ
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quote:
Originally posted by TheKaraokeGuy:
[QB] I think the main problem with this thread is that you all assume that the discs you purchase are someone else's property, even though you paid for them, that's just plain silly.

Obviously the piece of plastic called the disc is your property. The music on that disc is not your property to do with what you please. Just because you buy someone's CD doesn't mean you can then go and use a song on that CD for a TV commerical, for instance.

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Dan

Posts: 2367 | From: London, Canada | Registered: Apr 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BC/Studio Manager
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You are wrong. Based on your statements here, you are also illegally using SC content (assuming SC content is part of what you have backed up and are using in a commercial environment).

You are breaking several copyright and digital copyright protection laws, and you may be in violation of trademark infringement laws.

Now... whether or not you will be arrested, charged and prosecuted is an entirely different story. But that has nothing to do with the fact that you are breaking the law in your actions described here.

I've had enough of this - you don't have a grasp of the legalities, yet you spout off on here as though you do, and people who don't know any better may believe you.

Posts: 4262 | From: Charlotte, N.C., USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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