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Author Topic: Banning all SC music
AZRANDYUSA
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I have just learned of the witch hunt Sound Choice is launching in the Phoenix, AZ area against karaoke hosts who use CAVS or other computer equipment for playback of karaoke music.
Effective immediately, I have pulled all the Sound Choice versions from my 25.000 song library and put an announcement on the face of all of my song books.
With the variety of other labels I have, our guests will have no problem finding suitable versions of songs other than those with an SC designation.

Posts: 4 | From: ARIZONA | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
DanJ
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And if you are using copies, super CDG's or hard drives, SC probably thanks you for your co-operation.

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Dan

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[kingtony™]
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way to downgrade your library

--------------------
Be still my heart
This could be a brand new start
with you <3

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glmmantis
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Are the witches scared ?
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AZRANDYUSA
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For the record, I have all the original cds but I have spent untold hours loading the music to a CAVS unit so I wouldn't damage my cds.
Sound Choice's stand that I cannot do this.

Okay, Sound Choice, have it your way. My customers will just have to tough it out with the 21,000 other songs I have on my CAVS unit.

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glmmantis
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I sure hope you have ALL the originals.

I've been saying for years I'm gonna go to pc.

In my area, 99.0% ( NOT an exaggeration) of my competitors will tell you they have ALL the originals at home. I guarantee you, not one does!!! So I'm suspicious ( sorry)

Some of them have SOME of the originals.

Good luck with that Cavs...

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jason e. power
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I will NEVER start running from a computer.

I have the originals.
I do prefer SC versions in comparison to other companies.

Good luck to you and yours!!!!

[ April 05, 2007, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: jason e. power ]

--------------------
Karaoke With Jason & Friends
"where stars become friends"

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JohnnyBeach
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As a singer, I know from a fact (from a 70,000 song owner) that they get their songs from copying your discs as you sing. I asked if he had this song, the answer was no, so I gave him my disc. After I sang, he said..."I have it now". Wait, I PAID $60 FOR THIS DISC! I don't trust computer karaoke KJ, especially when they need my disc. Hey Arizona guy...stop complainin' and get with the law. You talk of your 25,000 song library..how many did you pay for? Sorry, all you great, honest KJ's, but I'm tired of these "feel sorry for yourself, self centered folks".
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Timberlea
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Just imagine, converting the value of the hours you spend ripping a disc onto a computer. To me, even if legal, it's not cost effective. My time is worth something to me. If I'm not being paid for it, I'm not doing it. Time spent ripping could be time spent with family, friends, or doing something fun. If a disc goes bad, so what. I'll either replace it or pull it. There is no one disc that will make or break a show.
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Brian
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Shouldn't this be under the thread- Thank You Sound Choice. [Wink]
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diamonddave
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as johnny said i have had disks swoffed wile singing so if the kj uses strictly disks i will use my disk but if it is a computer generated show i just find something in their book that way i try to prevent copying i only use disks at my shows which are only small parties for friends or family so it works well and my girl friend helps me with the rotation by pulling disks and keeping things on track so the computer is not really needed just my 2 cents
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DJ Plat
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How much are you selling the original disc. I figure if you are not using them and you have pulled them, I'd look into buying them. drop me a line
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glmmantis
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AZRandy,

Just in case you didn't know, Stellar records did the same exact thing, at the same time, in the same area.

Take them out of your library too!!!

Somebody post the letter(s) for him. Or, whats the website where it was posted? Is it still there?

L M

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[kingtony™]
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Chartbuster? weak musically, often the wrong lyrics

StarDisc? I refuse to do any song from them, the worst audio quality I've ever heard. I could make better backing tracks at home.

Panorama? Their music is subpar and their monthly selections have become extremely weak

Sound Choice and Stellar are really the only two US brands worth mentioning anymore.

--------------------
Be still my heart
This could be a brand new start
with you <3

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knightshow
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyBeach:
As a singer, I know from a fact (from a 70,000 song owner) that they get their songs from copying your discs as you sing. I asked if he had this song, the answer was no, so I gave him my disc. After I sang, he said..."I have it now". Wait, I PAID $60 FOR THIS DISC! I don't trust computer karaoke KJ, especially when they need my disc. Hey Arizona guy...stop complainin' and get with the law. You talk of your 25,000 song library..how many did you pay for? Sorry, all you great, honest KJ's, but I'm tired of these "feel sorry for yourself, self centered folks".

Johnny, that's why when I ran computerized, I didn't have a cd rom in my computer system. I converted all my songs at home on my home pc. I had a secondary player for customer discs.

But SC doesn't feel it's appropriate to convert their material. Since the bulk of my stuff was in SC and PHM, to follow their wishes and not get "arrested", even on stuff you can't buy anymore (to play original discs that can't be replaced to me is insanity), I retired.

Who needs that kind of pressure.

I'm still a karaoke singer, and have bought a couple discs since I retired... but they made their decision, and I made mine!

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Matt

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JohnnyBeach
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MATT:
I DO sympothize with all you honest KJ's. I too, don't understand, that if you have the original that you bought, why can't you have a copy on PC? I just object to those who wish to copy what I paid for so they can build their library. I scour the web looking for 'new' unreleased oldies, I've burned out with SC as I have all that they put out in that genre, so now I've moved into a newer era of music.
I just don't like when I'm asked (mostly NOT asked) to have them copy discs that I researched and bought. A good KJ should have it all through their own research and bucks (Most are custom discs). AZRANDY just hit a wrong string with me. I'm not pointing fingers anywhere else, except for those KJ's that I actually know who practice the copying game. Maybe HE doesn't, but I just ran off on a tangent when I responded. I tip my hat to you Matt, your posts are always up-front and clear and makes for good discussion.

Keep Singing,
Johnny

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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Downloading to mp3+g is legal, it also protects your original investments. Check out - MTU.COM- and look on the left side of the page under "is it legal". U.S. Supreme court has ruled, and it is legal. Sorry you went out of business for nothing Knight.
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DanJ
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Quoting from the link you provided, the bolding is mine. The US Supreme Court has not ruled on it, and this whole article is legal opinion, just like the legal opinions that SC and Stellar has that started this whole thing.

quote:
Making a copy of a Karaoke CDG, whether as a backup, or a change in format to a hard drive, to the extent analyzed under the fair use rubric, should be considered a fair use. Under the court's ruling in Riaa v. Diamond Multimedia , it seems likely that personal use or backup copies of electronic media (like CDGs, ebooks, or DVDs) would be found fair use if the issue were ever litigated.


[ April 07, 2007, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: DanJ ]

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Dan

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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It's a law that has no direct meaning, also, a unpunishible law, the only people worried about it is the karaoke manufactures. I don't break the law as written, I only use a computer to archive, and play my music that was bought and paid for.
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lehidude
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Hey I got an idea....Why don't we start a new thread every month bad-mouthing SC's business practices....Then we can hijack it and spout off our own "legalese" as to what the "law" is....

[Roll Eyes]

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knightshow
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Mr. Wonderful,

yes it IS against the copyright law and the fair use law (for commercial use).

We THINK we have the right to do with our material as we please. And to be honest, you DO. But this isn't our material, despite paying for it. The intellectual property still belongs to the original copyright owner. SC has a license to make one version of it (per pressing), and only in that one form (cd+g). When they release it on another cdg or on their downloads, they have to pay for that right (licensing) yet again.

Believe me... I've gone round and round over this. I only have my discs converted... so to me, it's not hurting anybody. In fact, I always felt it was HELPING the manus, because my property would always play right, no skipping discs, garbled graphics, etc... and once your customers know that you have XYZ song, you'll ALWAYS have it.

Not true... if you go by SC or any other manu's wishes, you are supposed to play the original material purchased (again, for commercial means).

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Matt

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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See this is where it gets weird, Soundchoice claims to own the copyright, but doesn't the original band or singer own the copyright? I remember when Michael Jackson bought all of the Beatles copy-rights, and it was in the millions of dollars. Anyway, I have been told that some songs I sing, I sound like Ozzy, therefore I am singing in the "style" of Ozzy. That "style" is rock. I have noticed in all karaoke disc's that the claim before the song starts is in the "style" of Ozzy, or in the "style" of the Red Hot Chili Peppers ETC.A style of music does not mean you are using that person's music note for note, or word for word, and neither do karaoke manu's. The song is usually compressed, altered in another key, or have a few words changed, so it is not a "duplicated", it is in the "style" of. So, when I play a karaoke disc in my PC, I did not "duplicate" the disc, I changed it, and now it is in the "style" of the original. It has been compressed, and mini-sounds have been taken out, and can be put in a different key. So when you buy a karaoke disc, and the song say's "Korn feat. Amy Lee" Freak on a Leash, do you really think Jon and Amy are on that karaoke disc? No it's in the "style" of, and nowhere on any disc will you see "words and music" by such n such artist, only "style".
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DanJ
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Sc doesn't own the copyright to the song, but they certainly own the copyright to their version of it. That's why they say that even if they wanted to allow KJ's to use copies, they don't have the right to say so.

[ April 08, 2007, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: DanJ ]

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Dan

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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They don't own the copyright to their own version??????
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Mark Katzoff
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I thought Matt's explanation was good, but we'll try this one more time. A publishing house, the artists or whomever owns the rights to the music and lyrics of the original song. They license those rights to SC to create a new product, the CDG versions of the songs for karaoke. The persons granting the rights can impose whatever limitations on the licenses as they like. While we do not know for certain what those limits are, it appears that one of those limitations in many cases is that the CDG versions can only be sold on disk and not as downloads. There also appear to be limits as to the number of printings of a disc in some cases as we have seen SC change songs in subsequent printings of a disc. While SC owns the rights to their version (although in theory the licensor could require that rights revert to them, but that would be bad for business) the use of their version are dictated by their initial license. You can think of licensing rights as a pie where SC is getting a slice or two but far from the whole thing.
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MISTER WONDERFUL
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But as this post started, AZRandy states that Soundchoice has started the witch hunt, and not ascap or bmi. So does that mean soundchoice is the federal law, the new marshall in town? Show me proof of where someone has been busted for transferring cd's to mp3's, and transferring only. I don't sell the music, or do I give it away, or trade. If transferring is so wrong, why are we (kj's who spend thousands of dollars on their disc's) the bad people? Shouldn't the people who create the instruments be directly responsible? I mean type in your computer under karaoke mp3+g and see how many hits there are, and aren't there 99% of the dj/kj hosts computer already? (as stated earlier)I will still use my computer regardless what anyone says, should there be a federal marshall knock on my door, I will show him all originals, and receipts he wants to see, then I will escort him off my property and wish him a nice day!!!!
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knightshow
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it's okay to use it for HOME use, not commercial.

And you're free to operate your business any way you please. To me, it's not worth it to continue to buy the amount of product I was and run a commercial business AND have to deal with this B.S. So I quit, and now my purchasing ability is greatly diminished.

I once took a stand the way you did. But with the Arizona cookie in the jar, I decided it was time to go on a diet! LOL!

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Matt

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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I hear you Knight!!!! I will still continue my course of action, and I will still continue buying Soundchoice disc's, but I won't buy a trailer to haul my music disc's around. I have 1200 karaoke disc's in cases, and 7200 dj disc's in cases, that weigh total of over 800 lbs. Laptop 22 lbs.
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DanJ
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quote:
Originally posted by MISTER WONDERFUL:
They don't own the copyright to their own version??????

The original copyright holder owns the song. SC owns the copyright to their music and graphics. That's why when the Sopranos decided to have a karaoke party by the lake, the producers would have to get permission from the copyright holders of the song, as well as permission from SC for the graphics and music to be used (At least it looked like an SC screen shot to me)

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Dan

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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But you are from Canada Dan, and U.S. copyright laws do not affect you
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DanJ
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I'm not speaking of Canadian laws, which are very much similar to the US in this respect anyway.

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Dan

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BC/Studio Manager
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Posted by DanJ:
The original copyright holder owns the song. SC owns the copyright to their music and graphics. That's why when the Sopranos decided to have a karaoke party by the lake, the producers would have to get permission from the copyright holders of the song, as well as permission from SC for the graphics and music to be used (At least it looked like an SC screen shot to me)



Correct on all counts.

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flameslayer
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So where exactly are we going with this??

Nowhere fast it seems to me.

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Brian
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If it was SC, does that mean "Out of Time" is coming soon?
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doggy
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quote:
MISTER WONDERFUL Typed:
... I will still use my computer regardless what anyone says, should there be a federal marshall knock on my door, I will show him all originals, and receipts he wants to see, then I will escort him off my property and wish him a nice day!!!!

The thing is the Marshall won't knock on your door, He (she) will likely walk into a bar, see your computerized show, and take some notes,and make a phone call while nursing a soda. Then the marshal and a couple of uniforms leave, while you wish them and your confiscated equipment a nice day.
But don't worry. Since you are so sure you have the right, the judge may see it your way, in about six months.

--------------------
What part of 'WOOF' don't you understand?

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Timberlea
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Six months? Man your optimistic. Try a year or two. If a Marshall is knocking at your door you can be pretty well be guaranteed he or she has a hot little search warrant in their hand. And he or she will not care about any receipts. The judge might, but they won't.
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Frank V.
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I can't fathom switching to PC karaoke. The units
I've seen didn't impress me. The graphics weren't
very smooth and the refresh rates didn't seem to
keep up with the tempo and the swipe.

Guess you can't teach this old dog any new tricks.

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Danny G
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And if they pulled that disc due to legal reasons and never replace it what happens then?
quote:
Originally posted by Timberlea:
Just imagine, converting the value of the hours you spend ripping a disc onto a computer. To me, even if legal, it's not cost effective. My time is worth something to me. If I'm not being paid for it, I'm not doing it. Time spent ripping could be time spent with family, friends, or doing something fun. If a disc goes bad, so what. I'll either replace it or pull it. There is no one disc that will make or break a show.


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Army Angel
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I just read everything posted on the forum, and don't get me wrong, I agree that the KJ's that are copying your disc while you perform is wrong, but there are upsides to using the computerized systems...

I started KJing in NC in 1998 when stationed with the military at one of the top karaoke bars in Fayetteville. Every night, I went in, set up our equipment, including three 200-300 pound crates full of cables, monitors, speakers, mics & stands, etc... Then I was responsible for keeping track of several thousand CDGs in 6-disc cartridges in several rolling cases. In a bar, you have all sorts of things that could go wrong causing the inability to play a disc... liquid spills, bumped equipment, and worst of all: scratched or cracked discs. I have found that a large selection of SC discs have become discontinued, most of which are the earlier released selections, which would have the most wear and tear from use over time.
The advantages of using a computerized system:
- no discs to transport, scratch or break
- irreplaceable discs remain safe from damage
- discs are out of reach of patrons (stealing)
- quicker to load and use than discs
- no disc drives to maintain during play

Here are some troubles I have seen other KJs suffer in the years since I quit KJing...
- one KJ had a system that was constantly in need of cleaning all three drives due to smoke exposure; he also had several discs that were highly requested for use that had to be retired due to damage and could not be replaced because they were discontinued.
- Imagine trying to keep up with disc and track numbers on 3,000 discs... Add to this problem patrons who can't seem to remember to write down the numbers for that song, or worse, they give you the WRONG numbers... then they blame YOU, saying it was YOUR mistake!

I know one KJ that uses a computer system. His system is more effecient than any I've ever seen.
His books are updated monthly, with song titles and artists. No numbers to confuse anyone. We write down the song title and the artist of our selection and turn it in. He goes into his system playlist and programs that file onto the list. He has the next rotation already programmed and ready to play, and only has to pause his list between songs to allow the singers time to step up.

I agree that people SHOULD be paying for the original cdgs, I will not argue with that. BUT, to say that they shouldn't be allowed to protect their investment by programming it into a system that makes things more effecient and preserves the products they paid for to begin with... well that's just completely ridiculous!!!
I paid for my discs, I will do with them as I choose. The laws state that you cannot charge for PERFORMANCE OR MAKING COPIES... the KJs that use the computers don't do either... they copy them for THEIR OWN PURPOSE, not to sell to others, and they DON'T CHARGE PATRONS TO SING!!!
There are NO BROKEN LAWS by the use of computers by karaoke hosts.
As for those who can prove that their personal discs are being copied by some jerk KJ during the show without permission, that's another story. Just remember that not all computer KJs are jerks though...

Posts: 1 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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"There are NO BROKEN LAWS by the use of computers by karaoke hosts."

Incorrect - on multiple levels. Primarily, it violates the federal copyright statutes in the US by changing the medium without permission of the copyright owners.

Posts: 4262 | From: Charlotte, N.C., USA | Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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