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Author Topic: Rotation
knightshow
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the lyric sheet included is usually inside or a part of the jewel cd cover. It'll be a folded up piece of usually white paper with black text on it.

I don't see them too often anymore. Usually older discs, and if you're buying them used or second hand, chances are the insert got tossed.

Or it's the rare case of SC not correcting the paper cover of the jewel cd case!

And Laura, I can't tell you the singers that come up and go "which one am I singing again?" LOL!

--------------------
Matt

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tryingcake
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Sing one bring one is a hard and fast rule with me.

[ June 22, 2006, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: tryingcake ]

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cliffd64
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quote:
Originally posted by tryingcake:
Sing one bring one is a hard and fast rule with me.

And it works quite well... I use it myself.
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DavidE
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The only time when I put up more than one song is when I give the KJ a chance to pick between a couple of songs, giving them a chance to pick what they might want to hear from me, or what they feel the audience might like. Or sometimes, I also through in a you pick.
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toqer
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Is this a bribe/tip discussion? Glad I could jump in. Whee, long whinded post coming.

Basically, my rotation is automated with different neato rules with software I helped create (autokdj.com) BTW before anyone jumps in and says the programs rotation algorythm is garbage, it's completely configurable to any style of rotation...

At 7bamboo, we let new (first time) singers cut in front of folks that already got a chance to sing. This way, folks that just got there don't have to wait through a 30man rotation to get up their first time. After their first trip up on stage, standard rotation rules apply to them.

Now i'm sure the next question is, "Well, what if you get 20 new singers in a row?" This is how we handle it.

Going back to what I was saying about configurable, we have several variables at our disposal.

Max wait time: If a song has been in the playlist for X amount of time, new singers can not cut ahead.

Dynamic Cue Lock: If there are more than X songs in the playlist, lock the first Y. This is a little tougher to explain, but basically if your DCL is set to 10/3 if there was 10 songs in the playlist, the first 3 get locked (new singers can't cut ahead)

Relative Cue Lock: Percentage based number that locks a percentage of songs on the playlist. For example, if the RCL was set to 25%, and there was 20 songs in the playlist, the first 5 would be locked and new singers cannot cut in front.

Between these rules, the rotation balances out to a real nice harmony of getting the first timers and previous singers. I've sat through my own rotation rules on quite a few occassions, and I must say that it's the best i've ever experienced. Our customers say the same thing.

On the subjects of tips/bribes.

I take both. A dollar in my tip jar is like an "Atta boy!" for me. A bribe is like a customer saying "I want first class service" You don't accuse the airlines of being scumbags for letting the first class people through the short security line do you? How about for letting them on the plane first? No, it's a business, and I treat karaoke the same way.

The way to keep bribes fair is to keep it in the open, and to have a set price. My price is $1 per person you cut in front of, with a $5 minimum.

Our ticket entry machine takes care of accepting the bribes for me. Any singer that has bribed the system gets a +++++ next to their name (the + tells everyone else in the bar how much they spent to cut) Usually people with ++++ next to their names get boo'd off the stage. It's funny to watch.

I don't care if anyone else subscribes to these notions of mine, but I figure hell, if the airlines can charge extra so folks can cut in line and still be professional, so can I. So if you don't like it, bite me.

--toq

Posts: 119 | From: San Jose, CA | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lehidude
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Bite me? Wow, what a pleasurable way of introducing yourself. [Smile]

Hey, whatever works in your venue is cool. The only person you really have to keep happy is the owner, and if s/he is cool with tip jars and bribes to augment your salary, and still pays you weekly, it's cool with me too.

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BC/Studio Manager
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Welcome to the board, always nice to have new contributors.


Regarding the attitude displayed with your final sentence: "So if you don't like it, bite me."

Not designed to win friends and support, which is totally up to you.

In general, it's a little over the top for a first/second post. Unless it's in the context of a heated discussion and a response to similar behavior, those types of expressions and demeanor are not acceptable here - which ultimately is up to me.

Hope that doesn't limit your possibilities to join in and contribute here.

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Showtimecalls
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SO Toqer you like the Lubes or the wet grease?

Either way you got me lost....Did you compare your show to an airline? Can I think of you being lost somewhere up in the clouds cause that is pretty Dumb

So What happens if 3 people at the same time say heres 20 buck can i sing next? You see Im all for Tips when job well done and Im all for Bribes as I have a son to feed But your attitude towards this is just ignorant

You actually announce your Bribe system...lol

But being in San Jose this all makes total sense so nevermind trying to explain it cause I've seen a few places in San Jose that do Karaoke and Im not impressed at all....
Anyways just a random rant I like from time to time

Welcome to the Boards and get over to the Song Request Forumn so we can see what kind of music you like/desire and remember 1 thing over there Sammy Hagar tunes arent allowed so dont asked or you will get a headache reading 45 posts on the matter!!!

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toqer
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What's with the grease and lube comment? Just get out of the closet already if that's what gets you off.

As far as my airline comparison, hey this is a service industry.

3 people come up and give me $20? I'll take it. If a customer has that big of a problem with it, I have enough to buy them a drink or two.

If you think San Jose karaoke is that horrible, watch how I run my show. If you have winamp installed, just click here and see how it's done. I don't use filler music, I don't put myself in rotation, basically I don't waste peoples time.

Finally, as far as us being open about bribes, hey at least that's better than *not* being open about it. How many times have you been to a show where you know it was happening, but the KJ denied it? This keeps it honest and in the open. Also, people that bump themselves up suffer because they're basically out of rotation for the next round.

--toq

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knightshow
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quote:
Originally posted by toqer:
3 people come up and give me $20? I'll take it. If a customer has that big of a problem with it, I have enough to buy them a drink or two...
--toq

You wouldn't have enough to pay off an entire BAR that notices it.

That's MY experiences in Portland. It's also why I created my company, and do NOT take BRIBES of any kind, and provide the best rotation I possibly can. After 8 singers, I pull myself from the singing list...

--------------------
Matt

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toqer
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I just don't get into the rotation period, but i'm a house KJ, I don't want to get into business myself because there's too much competition from pirates out here.

In an earlier post you said you took bribes when you were a house KJ, so you understand my underpaid point of view. It's also the owners policy here. If I refuse a bribe, the customer will offer it to the owner, then I get nothing, nada, zilch.

Ever watch spongebob squaredpants? My brother and I often joke how the owners are akin to Mr Crabs. Money Money Money.

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knightshow
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I only took a bribe (one time) when I "was in training", and after twelve (yes 12) people came up screaming that I bumped someone up (all for a miserable $3), I swore I'd never do it again.

I'm pretty sure that I said I understood where you're coming from. But it still doesn't change the fact that my stance on bribes is one that I don't do that, and my show is better off because of it.

And I offer the consideration that a House DJ/KJ can not possibly offer the same kind of show that an independant owner does, because we DO have the investment and want to succeed, where those that take such incentives such as bribes and bought drinks will end up messing with the rotation and upsetting customers...

Those of you that do this may not ever hear of any complaints. Most people would just shake their heads and move on... and scratch off (or at least think unfavorably) a venue that employs people who do that.

As for the owner receiving the bribe... he walks up and tells you to put someone else up? Heck, if that happens, that's just proof positive that you are safe from complainers... just point them to the obnoxious owner and say "Blame him!"

--------------------
Matt

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Showtimecalls
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Like I said Im not big on Karaoke in San Jose
as for the Lubes and grease its a comment I threw in way off base simply to show it didnt make sense just like you comparing a House KJ to an airline.


Although I can see my show with all the baggage checks early check ins security etc. being compared...lol Can I get an Amen Matt?

PS your a House KJ----Of course you are underpaid thats what they do hire in house to get a really cheap rate!!!

if you want some pictures go to Showtimekaraoke in yahoo groups and you can see some pictures of a few good time of many.


Thats Why it SHOWTIME baby!!!!

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toqer
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quote:
And I offer the consideration that a House DJ/KJ can not possibly offer the same kind of show that an independant owner does
Oh contrair motrair!

We offer the BEST show in San Jose. We've been a AOL/Shoutcast stream partner for 3 years and we broadcast video live from our stage. There's live chat on the CDG screen so folks on the net can comment towards the singers.

In just the last year we replaced all our lighting with 16 DMX controlled Chaveut Colorsplash JR LED par cans, and one gigantic 1000watt spot all controlled via an entec USB DMX controller. With a click of the mouse, I can change the room to whatever color I want, or strobe.

Our loyal customers love us so much that we've recieved over 250 CDG donated by them. It took us 6 months of ripping, proof reading, and grunt work to get them all imported, but we did it, and printed up the most indestructable song books ever. Every page in our song book is laminated with 2mil hot laminate.

I do point the finger at the owner a lot. Nobody is going to get cross with a 75yro japanese man.

--toq

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toqer
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Showtime.

I must be the world most famous house KJ.

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Retroboy
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You know what they say about people who feel the need to brag...
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toqer
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Who's bragging?
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Annie Danner
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I have mainly seen the the KJ's insert new singers int he rounds. Only one place out of town put new singers at the end of the list. I dislike it when they have dance music, two or three songs and no on dances and people want to SING! I feel, and pardon me for feeling this way, if people want to dance, dance to what the singers are singing! That's what karaoke is about! If I hear a run of country music, I'll sing Rock or Spanish! I'm very unpredictable at what I'm doing next. I strongly dislike being there first and have the KJ insert practically a whole round ahead of me.

--------------------
Annie

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Mark Katzoff
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I definitely symphatize on having a bunch of new singers stuck in front of you when you have been waiting a while.

Here's a couple end of night scenarios I saw this weekend:

1. The host ended with an open group song. If this is tradition, and people know about this, than I don't have a problem with it since it effects everyone evenly.

2. The second host ended the night on some blatent favoritism. The last 3 singers were me (the first singer of the rotation after having just concluded 2 2 hour rotations) a regular and crowd favorite who had not come in until sometime in the second set and a new to the bar singer who had sung about midway into the second set. She had a great voice and at that time the host had much as hinted that she'd get another song in. While I did prefer hearing the other two as opposed to a number of the other alternatives as best I know there were probably a few slips from people preceding them in the rotation and if I were one of them I would have been annoyed. I think the rotation should be run the same way all the way through, subject to cutting off new singers at a reasonable pre-closing point to award the ones in the bar all night. If you want to establish a tradition of an individual singing the last song, or close to it, that should be factored into the rotation and they should take their turn later to accomodate that rather than getting the extra song.

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marcolake
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put me up 1/1st, 2/2nd, and 3/rd --no problem

it will get anyplace going with:
1/ you really got me-kinks
2/ jumpimg jack flash- stones
3/ do you love me?- dave clark five

from then on--no country-- and the place parties on!!!!

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RickyZ
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I establish my rotation first-come-first-sing (Disneyland) for the first hour (or less if I
run out of singers). After the rotation is established, I insert new singers 3 or 4
songs down from who is presently singing and
add the rest as old-new-old-new. This gets
the new arrivals into the rotation in a timely
manner so they will stay. My regulars know the
routine and it's pretty rare to hear a complaint.
If I posted all the new ones at the end it would take forever for the old ones to come around again so they are willing to let some new ones slip in
one by one. The rotation rarely changes
and I don't let people sing out of turn
for friendship, money, or because they are
leaving soon or have a special song that just
must be sung now! My regulars appreciate the
consistancy and the fact that fairness is a priority. I do put up a tip jar, and never mention it.
There are countless ways of doing this but
after researching gigs and postings on sites
all over the country I settled on this one
and I have found that it works very well for me.

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[kingtony™]
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I take offense to the statement that in-house KJs can't provide the same quality show

I'm pretty sure I had a good show

that's what people tell me anyways

--------------------
Be still my heart
This could be a brand new start
with you <3

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doggy
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RickyZ, I like your explanation...
We've been using a similar system for the past five years. It works well

Whatever your rotation rules are, I think it is important to be consistent during the entire scheduled show.
If (as in Mark's scenario 2) the KJ or bar owner absativley posiloutley has to hear a best friend/big spender/Idol wannabe sing again, save it for overtime and clearly state that fact to the others in the room.

--------------------
What part of 'WOOF' don't you understand?

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Rockin_Rebecca
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I'd like to revive this thread and ask the computer KJs how their rotation programs work. Do they extrapolate an insertion order for new to old singers at a given time period, based on your input? Or do they just run a straight marching order. Inquiring minds want to know...
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Lonman
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I think many do a straight 'marching order', I still run mine the same way I always have with a baseline rotation to begin then insert new singers with the old.

--------------------
Lonman Productions

We don't entertain you, you entertain EVERYONE!!!

Visit my MySpace site
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or Facebook
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knightshow
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back when I was running shows on the computer, it was a line... first come, first served. New singers go to the end of the slips I have laid out.

--------------------
Matt

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Rockin_Rebecca
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So you have to insert new singers manually? There is no "magic" program? Only reason I'm asking is, believe it or not, I got hit up about my rotation scheme, only because we had 29 singers in the second round and it took an hour and a half to get everyone through.

I know, I know, I should have cut at an hour and worked in every other singer...basically I hadn't been that busy in a while and I wasn't really watching the clock. So I was just kind of curious as to whether someone had written a program to take the human element out - you know, the decision part as to where to insert new singers, when to blend and when to run a straight marching order.

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[kingtony™]
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taking the human element out leads to disaster in my opinion!

unless the computer generated order could be manually altered

--------------------
Be still my heart
This could be a brand new start
with you <3

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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I have a OODJ system, it has an option that allows for rotation, you can type in the persons name, and drag and drop the song they are singing, this will display their name, and song on the audience monitors, you can do this with all your singers, and also puts new singers in rotation for you, keeps a log of who has sang, and what song was sung. I still like to run manually rotation, since people constantly change their mind on what song they want to sing just before its their turn, But the broadcast of their names on the monitors is a great help, especially in a large venue. So Rebecca, there is a magic program, just have to type the persons name, and the program keeps rotation for you.
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Danny G
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I would do a first come first served basis with new singers getting into the rotation three to five songs after submitting their songs provided that I had already ended the first rotation, if not they went to the end of the list. My present computer based program forces me to do a first come first served with new singers going to the end of the rotation.
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Frank V.
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny G:
I would do a first come first served basis with new singers getting into the rotation three to five songs after submitting their songs provided that I had already ended the first rotation, if not they went to the end of the list. My present computer based program forces me to do a first come first served with new singers going to the end of the rotation.

Sounds fair to me. That's the way I do it and
most of the KJ's around here do the same.
No computer here, just plain old paper slips.

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Rockin_Rebecca
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Thanks everyone. I have been running my rotations as most of you do for many years. The problem always comes along when the length of time gets long. Most people are willing to wait an hour, but beyond that...

I have not gone computerized. Right now I'm not interested in spending the money on getting set up and the time it would take for me to convert. I'm still holding out as this being the only legal way to operate. Still, I wanted to know if my computerized competitors were using some fancy-smancy new fangled way of running a rotation that might make my "human" way look wrong.

Hey, Frank...I see you are from Omaha. I'm in Lincoln. Where do you go most of the time for karaoke? I have several friends that frequent karaoke bars in Omaha. Just wondered if you go to the same haunts.

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DavidE
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A problem with the add a new singer that just came in after the first rotation about three to five singers after they hand in the slip is that many people know this and take advantage of it. They come in from another place, hand in their song, buy one drink (maybe) and then sing and leave for another place. Then I have to sit through 3 to singers like this and wait longer. I still like the standard list in that after you sing you are put at the end of the list, whether it is 3 singers on the list (where you become number 4) or 20 (where you become 21), that way you know where you stand. I guess a reasonable compromise is the old face new face list; but then again, you have to be the first few on the list on that to seem somewhat fair.
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Lonman
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidE:
I still like the standard list in that after you sing you are put at the end of the list

That method isn't necessarily the 'standard', just a way of doing it or may be standard in your area. The insert method could be considered standard for this area.

--------------------
Lonman Productions

We don't entertain you, you entertain EVERYONE!!!

Visit my MySpace site
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or Facebook
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Mark Katzoff
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Much as I wish that putting the new singers at the bottom of the list was standard here, it isn't. Most shows I go to use some form of insertion method to filter in new singers.

Rebecca, speaking solely as a singer, on a reasonably busy night I wouldn't find an hour and a half rotation unreasonable. Of course, I go to a place that can see 2 hour rotations. I do have a problem with completely uncapped rotations because they can totally negate any advantage to coming earlier.

Posts: 1261 | From: Milton, MA 02186 | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
knightshow
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I'm impressed you got thru 29 singers in an hour and a half, Rebecca! Musta been some short songs... usually 5 min songs means 15 songs an hour!

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Matt

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MISTER WONDERFUL
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Usually the people that come out early also leave early, you can't punish the people that come in later. I go by the "how many times you have sang" list. If someone that came in at 9:00 and have sang three times before the rotation has gotten larger, compared to the person that arrives at 10:30 and has not sang once, since the 10:30 person will leave later, there is no sense to turn them away early. By the time midnight comes, nobody remembers the original rotation anyways, because so many new singers, and old singers have either come or gone. I try to let the before midnight crowd sing the same amount of songs, people after midnight sing less, and they accept this
Posts: 207 | From: joliet Ill usa | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
[kingtony™]
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the way I do it is this

starting rotation:
ME
O'Doyle
Klara
Michaelle
Nick

I will start when I have 5 singers, and rush to do so. So say I sing and then when O'Doyle is singing Nick and Becca come in and put songs in, they would go to #6 and #7. Then Rich wanders up to put a song in, he would go to #8. Then Romeo comes in, #9. Marie and Tim put songs in, #10 and #11. At this point, I will probably put myself in at #12, O'Doyle in at #13, and Klara at #14. The next new singer comes in, say Dee, would go at #15...then maybe someone at #17...etc

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Be still my heart
This could be a brand new start
with you <3

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TTowntenor
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I hate it when kj's insist on waiting for a certain amount of singers to start a show. It's crap! If karaoke is advertised at a specific time, start the friggin show! I went into a place with a couple friends one night & the place had a few people in it, but we 3 put up slips...the show was advertised at 9. We signed up & 9 came around & we waited. About 10 minutes of music playing we went up & asked what the problem was, host stated that he won't start until he gets 5 people...WTF? We are sitting there waiting to sing, spending money, waiting to sing at the advertised start time & not allowed to sing when start time comes? They FINALLY got 2 more singers to start the show 15 minutes later...9:25. When he announced that they had enough to start the show, we paid our tab & explained to the manager that we would not be singing or patronizing his club anymore & would find a club that starts at their advertised time. The manager was actually pretty embarrassed & didn't know this might be a problem to singers & didn't know it wasn't the norm...needless to say, he invited us to stay for another round (on him) & sat & talked with us during that round. We explained that's part of the problem in karaoke is hosts that don't take it seriously & feel they can't run a show with less than a certain amount of singers. If you have ONE person that wants to sing, let them sing, that's what they are there for. We told him you are advertising karaoke at this time, you are paying this guy to play music until he gets singers? A jukebox could do that. Needless to say, the host got reprimanded that night and fired a few days later & now they start on time with a new host.

[ September 11, 2007, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: TTowntenor ]

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If there was any justice in this world, oil company executive bathrooms would smell like the ones in their gas stations.

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Stan
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That was pretty bad. The manager seemed considerate.

Where I hang out at, we can actually get an early start if the line starts out long.

Posts: 1025 | From: San Francisco, CA, USA | Registered: Jul 1999  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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