posted
Then maybe you should not have said anything at all.
It's clear from the past postings of kj's here that they believe in being fair and square and treating people by the golden rule. You're admission to behavior contrary to those standards is what has brought a negative response from some of us.
You probably are a nice guy, though I've never met you. But, here you will always be looked on with suspicion now because everyone here now knows you can be bought.
Posts: 902 | From: Joliet,IL.USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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I think managing the rotation is an important aspect to a show, especially dealing with duets, additions, late-night bar-hoppers or regulars when swamped by transient groups and the like. There are no cookbook answers to handle this and everyone develops their own methods, and customers usually get used to whatever that is. But to me, one of the worst things a KJ can do is get a reputation for being unfair/taking brides in the rotation. I've often turned down more in bribes than I would make in pay in a night, but in the long run, it's the reputation that I think counts. Just my $.02.
quote:Originally posted by KaraokeX - King Tony: You people are making it sound like because I took a bribe a couple times that my entire show is bad. That's kinda unfair I would say.
In fact, I would say that's extremely unfair.
I'm sorry I call it as I see it, you openly admit to accepting bribes, that right there states (to me) that you could care less about anything other than lining your pockets. Once you tabe a bribe to bump someone, you are no longer a "fair" host.
-------------------- If there was any justice in this world, oil company executive bathrooms would smell like the ones in their gas stations. Posts: 234 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Dec 2001
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I dont see anything wrong with a KJ being bribed. I dont accept them personally but if Im at a show and and I get bumped because some guy bribes him with $10 or More Well.... Good for the KJ to make the extra bucks....
I sing whenever I want just like anyone else.wheter its at a bar,at home in the car. And dont have a problem not singing 3 songs a night. I will support any KJ if they run a good show.
Some people forget that this may not be the full time job but it might help their income out. As Most KJs know this. Over 75% of KJs that DO NOT have their own Equipment are UNDERPAID!!!!!
And not everyone can afford to go and get their own equipment and afford all the music.
SO I Support them the best I can, If I get bumped so be it. If they need a song which that KJ doesn't have. They can use mine since I'm there!!! It doesn't Matter how someone runs a show.It doesn't matter who attends the shows doesn't Matter who is not attending the shows. WHAT MATTERS IS THE KJ HAVING A SHOW!!!!!! If after all the crazy rotations bribes people coming and going they still have a show at the end.Well then they did alright.
ALL Rotations have a problem for someone anyways.
Try to remember this as we all share the main things in common great taste in music and Karaoke. Try not to get to carried away. No more Drama, specially with the Drama King and Queen shown the door there should be alot less drama on here. Posts: 1483 | From: Kansas City MO 64119 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Actually if it was a KJ's only source of income it could possibly justify it more than just someone doing it to make an extra buck.
That being said, most of us here are happy that we get paid to do something we love. So we respect it more, it's not just a source of income, it's our life, our passion, our drive to put on the best show we possibly can. For some of us that is gratification enough, in the end it's nice to get paid, but it's not a priority.
I know for me it's not. I've walked out of paying gigs because they wanted to control me and my show. I've turned down countless bribes cause I know that even though those people might leave and go someplace else, there is plenty of other people to make up for them. Not to mention this, people who give a bribe to go up sooner are egotistical wannabes who think they can preform better than everyone, and don't contribute anything to the show. By this I mean they are primadonnas. They are the type to tell someone that they should never sing in public cause they suck and so on. Which is not what karaoke is about. It's about everyone going out having a few, and singing (or attempt to sing) a song that they like. They may not be good, they may sound like they were stepping on a cat, but in the end their happiness is what counts.
posted
I don't mean for it to be such a downer, Tony... but maybe you could look at the negative feedback as a source of enlightenment.
In no way was I saying "Tony, you SUCK!"... just that the policy of accepting bribes for better treatment of customers while pushing back the other singers that are supporting the gig as much as everyone else seems to be the unfair part of it.
For the record, I really was proud of you for the way you posted your disapproval of our stances. Seriously dude, that was CLASS! You kept your kool, and said what you wanted to say without getting uppity! Well done!
And as I pointed out, when I was a low-income house kj, there were times I DID accept the bribe for better treatment. But upon reflection of that time, when I finally decided how I wanted to run my company, I realized that I needed that negative experience as much as I need the positive ones... it's how I grew in my experience to be able to make the decision I wanted to make for me and my new fledgeling outfit.
And it's become a standard by which I am known in Portland, admittedly by only a few! LOL!
-------------------- Matt Posts: 3332 | From: Independence, mo | Registered: Oct 2001
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I would also like to note that I respect everyone for their decisions to not take bribes. I'm sure when I'm able to do karaoke full-time and everything I will probably not take them either. When I was KJing it was mostly just in-house stuff so I was only getting like $50...so a few extra bucks on top of that was great, especially since that was really my only source of income at the time.
-------------------- Be still my heart This could be a brand new start with you <3 Posts: 1242 | From: Lakewood, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2005
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Okay, this is just for laughs, but would you be offended if I offered you a bribe "not to sing"? We have a KJ here who totally mangles some (if not all) of the songs he sings. I understand he loves to sing and i'm sure it's only a part time gig, but I know karaoke is for fun, and I enjoy partying at this particular lounge, but, when this KJ is here, he tends to sing songs that are just not right for him. There are other people waiting to sing. By the way, they charge a dollar a song. I feel, if I am paying to sing a song (whether I'm good at it or not), I would like it if he plays the "karaoke paying customers" their song first. Unless, maybe, he should pay the patrons a dollar to sing too. It's only fair. At least to our ears. In fact, if it's crowded, and there are a lot of other songs to be played, I think he should not even be singing (not until it slows down and he can actually fit an extra song at the end of the night). IMO I'm not all that, but my hearing knows what it can tolerate.
-------------------- Aloha from Hawaii! Posts: 149 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Feb 2006
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Soulful, I think you'll find that ALL pro kjs know to pull themselves from the rotation once it gets busy. I sang in rotation up to the last hour myself last night, but we only had 8-10 singers!
Once it got to 11, I janked myself. I would have done it the last time I sang too, for 8 is usually my number I pull myself from the rotation, but I had a couple folks request a song to help pick up the night.
By the way, LMAO at paying a Kj "not to sing"...
It's rare when you find the kjs can't sing. Usually most of them are singers that got into the business because they had empathy for it and the singers. I know I tank a couple songs here and there... last night I couldn't find my pitch on one song at all! Ended up singing it I know half an octave down from what the original was...
hey, were you at my gig last night???
-------------------- Matt Posts: 3332 | From: Independence, mo | Registered: Oct 2001
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-------------------- Be still my heart This could be a brand new start with you <3 Posts: 1242 | From: Lakewood, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2005
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what drives me crazy is when they ask me to sing with them...I've sang almost every song because of nights like that.
Posts: 1483 | From: Kansas City MO 64119 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by knightshow: Soulful, I think you'll find that ALL pro kjs know to pull themselves from the rotation once it gets busy.
By the way, LMAO at paying a Kj "not to sing"...
I know I tank a couple songs here and there... last night I couldn't find my pitch on one song at all! Ended up singing it I know half an octave down from what the original was...
hey, were you at my gig last night???
Why, did someone offer you a "bribe"? LOL or because you weren't "on it"?
-------------------- Aloha from Hawaii! Posts: 149 | From: Honolulu | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Here's a twist (on the rotation). During a show, one of the bar owners told my wife that he wanted to sing ... NOW! I pulled him aside and tried to explain to him that the rotation is important to many customers. A brick would have been more understanding. The owner proceeded to tell my wife and I that we would be fired if he did not sing next. The current song was about to end; I had the pleasure of handing the mic to the next singer in the rotation, a long time customer of ours. Needless to say, we didn't work there anymore. Funny thing, 8 months later they were out of business and we were working more shows than ever. ------------------- Life's been good .... Ed
Posts: 15 | Registered: May 2005
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I'm glad you stuck to your guns. Being the owner does not necessarily make you in charge. That's what managers are for. Plus, if this schmuck was demanding to sing he probably has a lot more problems, (business aside) than being next. Anyway, it's nice to see he got his in the end and conversly, so did you, (in a good way).
Posts: 902 | From: Joliet,IL.USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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Actually Flames if your the Owner you are in Charge...Not the Managers,If the owner wants to, He can change management to his liking. The Owner usually will find management with the same idea of wwhat the owner wants though. Usually at my shows we have the Owners all hang out all night and party with us. THey usually like to sing once every 3 months so when they want to sing I will get them right up. Everywhere is different though. With my bar owners they are friendly with everyone have personal relationships with most in the bar and goes to the extreme to please everyone. SO not a single person will complain when we get the owner up.
REMEBER THIS....Management dont pay your salary..The Owner Does, What goes on in his bar on other nights are not the KJ Company's business unless its something that will hurt/improve your show.
Posts: 1483 | From: Kansas City MO 64119 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I just would have told the owner to give me a few minutes... as I'd already promised the next one or two people who were up. I don't surprise folks with the rotation. I'm usually running around finding the next singer while the song is on to tell them so that they have an idea. It keeps the ol' "Beuller? Bueller?" routine from happening.
IF the owner would have insisted, then fine. But it's HIS headache if folks complained.
once they see who they're impacting if they get that demanding, it's really quite funny to see the smart ones not do it anymore!
-------------------- Matt Posts: 3332 | From: Independence, mo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MisterEd: [QB] Here's a twist (on the rotation). During a show, one of the bar owners told my wife that he wanted to sing ... NOW! I pulled him aside and tried to explain to him that the rotation is important to many customers. A brick would have been more understanding. The owner proceeded to tell my wife and I that we would be fired if he did not sing next.
What a baby. (not you--him)
[ February 28, 2006, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Laura ]
-------------------- Love singing! Love singing! Love love love! Posts: 801 | From: St. Louis County, Missouri | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by knightshow: [QB] I just would have told the owner to give me a few minutes... as I'd already promised the next one or two people who were up. I don't surprise folks with the rotation. I'm usually running around finding the next singer while the song is on to tell them so that they have an idea. It keeps the ol' "Beuller? Bueller?" routine from happening.
At one of the places where I go, the KJ will call someone up to sing, and then he will often say to the person after them, "(so-and-so), you're next." That really helps a lot. Then you know if you have enough time to go to the bathroom or whatever you've gotta do.
[ February 28, 2006, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Laura ]
-------------------- Love singing! Love singing! Love love love! Posts: 801 | From: St. Louis County, Missouri | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by knightshow: [QB] I just would have told the owner to give me a few minutes... as I'd already promised the next one or two people who were up. I don't surprise folks with the rotation. I'm usually running around finding the next singer while the song is on to tell them so that they have an idea. It keeps the ol' "Beuller? Bueller?" routine from happening.
At one of the places where I go, the KJ will call someone up to sing, and then he will often say to the person after them, "(so-and-so), you're next." That really helps a lot. Then you know if you have enough time to go to the bathroom or whatever you've gotta do.
I almost always say who is "on deck" after the current singer coming up, it's definitely a good idea. Plus if I have a lot of people coming up to me with "WHEN AM I UP!?" I'll sometimes announce the next 3 or 4 singers that are coming up...
-------------------- Be still my heart This could be a brand new start with you <3 Posts: 1242 | From: Lakewood, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KaraokeX - King Tony: I almost always say who is "on deck" after the current singer coming up, it's definitely a good idea. Plus if I have a lot of people coming up to me with "WHEN AM I UP!?" I'll sometimes announce the next 3 or 4 singers that are coming up... [/QB]
We do the same thing, so & so your on deck & Ellen your in the hole. It makes it easy on the singers, they can "prepare" or hit the john, notifiy their friends that they'll be singing soon, etc.
Susie
-------------------- You do it in the shower, You do it in the car, come do it with us, and be a star......
Karaoke with Full House Entertainment Posts: 143 | From: Moore, OK USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
We typically have a very good rapport with owners and managers. Very rarely is it the case where we can't work something out. When we explain things in terms of keeping the customer happy, most owners/managers understand that we are looking out for their best interest as well as ours.
I agree that the owner is ultimately in charge of what goes on in the bar. But I also believe as KJs, we are ultimately in charge of what goes through our systems. The customers are not just the bar owners customers, they are the KJ's customers as well. This is especially important when a KJ has alot of regulars who attend shows at more than one venue.
Announcing who's "next", who's "on deck" and who's "in the hole" is always a good idea; I agree that it keeps the surprise factor down and helps prevent unexpected interruptions in the show. In addition, we hand out mics ahead of time; this also allows us to fade from one song to the next without worrying so much about the singer being ready. Its not fool-proof, but it helps.
posted
Only 3 of my 7 current bar owners, ever sing.
One loves to sing and puts himself in the rotation just like a customer.
One sings once in 3-4 months, and will ask early for a song near the end of the night.
One stays for the show 4-5 times per year, and sings within about 15 minutes of giving into the pressure of the patrons. I just explain that she helps feed my kidds all year so I can 'give her this perk'... She is well liked and everybody forgives me the extra 4 minute wait for their turn.
In most of our venues, management (at our sugestion) limits their on-duty serving staff to one song per night.
I belive it is possible to be fair, and acomodating simultaniously.
On the bribe thing... We've fired hosts for accepting bribes. The closet to a bribe I've ever accepted was allowing a guy to buy a drink for eveybody bumped, if his girlfriend could go next... cost him over $70 and nobody complained.
No, I have been karaokeing since 1994 and LOVE to travel to different towns for karaoke and see what other people sing. The rotations always amaze mew because the KJ's all do it differently. I think that the KJ should start the rounds off with their song and for the singers that are there at 7:00, when the show starts at 8 should be rewarded by having the newcomers added to the round in order instead of being iserted! Especially in front of the 1st singer. That always galls me. Here the KJ's have you turn your slips in one at a time. You bring your second slip up when you put in your 1at slip. One place had you write your name on a chalkboard for the round. THAT was different!
Ahh, I love karaoke as well!! I too am amazed at the different ways karaoke is run. I'm probably a little more hard core on watching rotations since we run ours a certain way and insist all our KJ's do the same.
We let people turn in as many slips as they like. Sometimes they will come up and rearrange the order depending on the mood of the club or their own preference... Makes no difference to us, they wait long enough to sing, might as well sing what you like!!
Susie
-------------------- You do it in the shower, You do it in the car, come do it with us, and be a star......
Karaoke with Full House Entertainment Posts: 143 | From: Moore, OK USA | Registered: May 2004
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{NOT NECESSARILY A NEW TOPIC} TIPS & BRIBES. I DO ACCEPT TIPS. I DO ACCEPT BRIBES I HAVE READ ON THIS FORUM.YOU ARE GREEDY,IF YOU ACCEPT,ASK, IMPLY, THAT YOU WANT TIPS. THEREFORE, I AM COMFORTABLE, IN SAYING THAT THE PEOPLE THAT CALL ME GREEDY FOR ACCEPTING SAME ARE IGNORANT,STUPID, OR INDEPENDENTLY WEALTHY. I DO KARAOKE FOR A LIVING. I AM GOOD AT WHAT I DO. I HAVE SEVERAL SHOWS THAT I HAVE BEEN BOOKED AT FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME. MY REGULARS ANNOUNCE ON THE MIC. THAT I ACCEPT TIPS. MY REGULAR SINGERS, TAKE MY TIP JAR AND WALK AROUND THE BAR TO COLLECT CASH FOR ME. WHEN I HAVE 20 PLUS SINGERS LINED UP, AND TEN OF THEM ARE PECKIN' ME ON THE SHOULDER, SAYIN' WHEN IS IS IT MY TURN, I SAY A 20 DOLLAR BILL GOES TO THE FRONT OF THE LINE. I HAVE GREAT EQUIPMENT I PUT ON A GREAT SHOW. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE ARROGANT, OR GREEDY OR SELFISH. JUST DON'T AGREE WITH THE ONES THAT CALL ME GREEDY. OPEN FOR DEBATE!!!
Posts: 5 | From: branson, mo. | Registered: Mar 2006
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secondly, Branson is so far off the beaten path, you are only able to get away with this because you probably don't have a lot of competition.
thirdly, if your regulars are used to it, then fine. But a competitor across the street that gives a great show but DOESN'T accept bribes... you'll see a remarkable difference in your rotation.
And don't call me stupid! Insulting is rarely an accepted "debate" tactic.
I don't think you're greedy, but I do think you have a limited view of business, and how it works. I'll be heading back to Missouri shortly. Unsure exactly where I'll set up, whether in KC or down in the Ozarks (around Camdenton, but chances are, I'd be all over the Lake)...
-------------------- Matt Posts: 3332 | From: Independence, mo | Registered: Oct 2001
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We were in Branson 7/2004 and at that time the pickings for karaoke were THIN! We did, however, find a great bar with a fantastic KJ that did not take bribes, nor did he push up the performers, etc that came in (as we've seen them do in Vegas). We karaoked with him 2 out of 3 nights, we rested on the 3rd!
What clubs do you host karaoke in? We have friends in Springfield and many of us visit Branson (and by default, our friends) and they karaoke in Branson semi-regularly.
Matt,
On a separate note, I lived in Camdenton back in my Jr. High years for one year of Ugh!!! Back then we had one stop light and a catalog Sears storefront! My dad worked there and my grandparents owned a resort (good times checking for the 13-16 year old boys coming to vacation with the folks!) Anyway, Richard & I met at the in the pits (the joke is... & it's been that way ever since ) at the races in Osage Beach around July of 1980... (Please DON'T do the math!!)
Small world, Susie
-------------------- You do it in the shower, You do it in the car, come do it with us, and be a star......
Karaoke with Full House Entertainment Posts: 143 | From: Moore, OK USA | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by JEFF LAWSON: {NOT NECESSARILY A NEW TOPIC} TIPS & BRIBES. I DO ACCEPT TIPS. I DO ACCEPT BRIBES I HAVE READ ON THIS FORUM.YOU ARE GREEDY,IF YOU ACCEPT,ASK, IMPLY, THAT YOU WANT TIPS. THEREFORE, I AM COMFORTABLE, IN SAYING THAT THE PEOPLE THAT CALL ME GREEDY FOR ACCEPTING SAME ARE IGNORANT,STUPID, OR INDEPENDENTLY WEALTHY. I DO KARAOKE FOR A LIVING. I AM GOOD AT WHAT I DO. I HAVE SEVERAL SHOWS THAT I HAVE BEEN BOOKED AT FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME. MY REGULARS ANNOUNCE ON THE MIC. THAT I ACCEPT TIPS. MY REGULAR SINGERS, TAKE MY TIP JAR AND WALK AROUND THE BAR TO COLLECT CASH FOR ME. WHEN I HAVE 20 PLUS SINGERS LINED UP, AND TEN OF THEM ARE PECKIN' ME ON THE SHOULDER, SAYIN' WHEN IS IS IT MY TURN, I SAY A 20 DOLLAR BILL GOES TO THE FRONT OF THE LINE. I HAVE GREAT EQUIPMENT I PUT ON A GREAT SHOW. I'M NOT TRYING TO BE ARROGANT, OR GREEDY OR SELFISH. JUST DON'T AGREE WITH THE ONES THAT CALL ME GREEDY. OPEN FOR DEBATE!!!
No CAPS! But yes bribe takers are nothing BUT greedy that don't care about their customers but only their pocket. Yours would be a show I would avidly avoid & search out a show that was FAIR! Fair & bribe do not co-exist in karaoke & anyone that thinks otherwise is sadly mistaken. Like Matt said Branson is pretty small comparatively, aprox 7000-8000 population? If it's working for you it's only because there are lack of other FAIR shows. Try doing your way in a city of a couple hundred thousand & see how little work you actually get!
Scenerio, you say you have 20 singers & 10 of them "pecking you on the back", what if EACH one of them gave you $20 to "SING NEXT"? Now what? Each one obviously can't sing next, but they "bought" you in good faith that you would get them up next & expect to be up next. Just a thought!
-------------------- If there was any justice in this world, oil company executive bathrooms would smell like the ones in their gas stations. Posts: 234 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Dec 2001
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Sorry bout the caps. I'm not a very good typer. but as far as branson goes. off the beaten path is not a fair description over 5 millon, yes I said millon tourist visit her every year.And there are lots of other karaoke businesses in town. WE promote ourselves as the BEST KARAOKE EXPERIENCE in the ozarks. our shows are full 99% of the time,. we get cards & letters from all over the U.S. telling us they had a great time after they put cash in my jar. If ten people put in a 20 to go next. the 1st 20 goes first & so on. look you guys run your shows how you see fit. I'll do likewise.i just don't think it's fair to call someone greedy.when you have never seen their show. as for where we play. TUES; OUTBACK PUB on the strip WEDS; THE UPPER DECK in rockaway beach FRI; DILLONS PUB on Mt. Branson SAT; SOUTHTOWN GRILL In Hollister come see me anytime i will gaurantee you a good time & one of the best karaoke shows you've ever seen.
Posts: 5 | From: branson, mo. | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote: I'll do likewise.i just don't think it's fair to call someone greedy.when you have never seen their show.
Cause most of us here run shows for the love of karaoke first, money second. And in our ethics book, some of us believe that bribes only hurt the real people who come out to sing, while the briber comes sings their quick song and jets, while contributing nothing to the bar.
quote:Originally posted by JEFF LAWSON: Sorry bout the caps. I'm not a very good typer. but as far as branson goes. off the beaten path is not a fair description over 5 millon, yes I said millon tourist visit her every year.And there are lots of other karaoke businesses in town. WE promote ourselves as the BEST KARAOKE EXPERIENCE in the ozarks. our shows are full 99% of the time,. we get cards & letters from all over the U.S. telling us they had a great time after they put cash in my jar. If ten people put in a 20 to go next. the 1st 20 goes first & so on. look you guys run your shows how you see fit. I'll do likewise.i just don't think it's fair to call someone greedy.when you have never seen their show. as for where we play. TUES; OUTBACK PUB on the strip WEDS; THE UPPER DECK in rockaway beach FRI; DILLONS PUB on Mt. Branson SAT; SOUTHTOWN GRILL In Hollister come see me anytime i will gaurantee you a good time & one of the best karaoke shows you've ever seen.
Take out the bribe scenerios & it may just be the best karaoke experience, as long as you take a bribe, it is no longer a fair show which is a MAJOR turn off & knowing this, I wouldn't need to see your show, I know how you state you operate so I will never attend. I can see where you may get away with it easier in a tourist town however, no regulars to **** off. You don't have to care about the people.
-------------------- If there was any justice in this world, oil company executive bathrooms would smell like the ones in their gas stations. Posts: 234 | From: Seattle, WA, USA | Registered: Dec 2001
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well to each his own but I do karaoke so I can make a living doin what I love to do. We save our singers slips for them so they don't have to fill out new ones every time they come to a show & we have well over 200 regular singers that we do this for. my singers tell me I run the fairest show in town. when i announce that a $20 goes to the front it's because some jerk wont quit bugging me about when is it my turn.if he's stupid enough to pay it .my regulars say good for you jeff. My ethics are not flawed. I work very hard to make sure everyone that comes to my show gets a chance to sing. there have also been times when I had so many singers I've said don't try to buy your way in cause there are people who haven't gotten to sing yet. every show is different.
Posts: 5 | From: branson, mo. | Registered: Mar 2006
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Hey I work in the tourist capital of the USA, and I've turned down numerous bribes, knowing that it would be detrimental to my business. I look at it from the bar's point of view. 9 times out of 10 there is a group that is involved, and all they want to do is go bar hopping. My job is to keep people at the bar for as long as posible. So If they can't wait the half hour to fourty five minutes to get up and sing, and support the bar, then I really don't care.
That's all I can say on my end, don't look at this as saying that your pratice is dead wrong, it's just frowned upon with most companies that truley strive to serve the customer. But since there isn't any organizations out there to set a standard, there really isn't any way to say what is right or wrong, we only have our ethics.
posted
I agree, if you need to take bribes to "make a living" then you aren't charging the bar enough. I'm another that won't take bribes - like stated, once a bribe is involved, you no longer are running a fair show, no matter how you want to justify it.
posted
I am proud to say that last night I got EVERY slip that I was given up to sing
I had to run a little over, but hey
-------------------- Be still my heart This could be a brand new start with you <3 Posts: 1242 | From: Lakewood, Ohio | Registered: Jan 2005
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